Opinions on new 120 set up & aquascape

[AmatuerAuer]

Just got this system dialed in yesterday, it's a 120 with 1.5"drain & return leading to the 40 breeder sump. The drain is split direct to refugium and skimmer compartment, central compartment with a mag 9.5 return pump and heater.

Super Reef Octopus 2000 INT skimmer, Aqueon Pro 200 heater, x2 Kessil a360w with controller. Maxspectre Gyre XF-150

Still trying out new things with the LED controller. Setting up the program levels and intervals.

Roughly, very roughly, 100lbs of reef saver rock. 2-3" live sand bed

The rock work is combination putty/epoxy and drilled pieces stacked on thick PVC tubing. The towers do not sway or teeter they are rigid. There is about 10-20lbs In the fuge as well.

What do you think?

 

[AmatuerAuer]

I am going to remount the lights on a beam above the tank and raise it a few inches to avoid the spot light effect

 

[joekool]

For starters you could go to a mag1200. I would consider a dct12000 as it has 8 speeds and slow start up and much less wattage than a mag pump. Everything else is looking good.

Just don't rush anything and you will have success.

Looks cool so far

 

[redfishbluefish]

I don't like metering drain lines with valves......they are just waiting to clog up with snails, precipitates, etc, and now cause the DT to overflow while the return pumps all that water up...and very little coming down. I'd prefer open pipe the whole way down......or minimally one of the drain pipes without a valve.

 

[joekool]

I don't like metering drain lines with valves......they are just waiting to clog up with snails, precipitates, etc, and now cause the DT to overflow while the return pumps all that water up...and very little coming down. I'd prefer open pipe the whole way down......or minimally one of the drain pipes without a valve.

Don't put snails in your tank!

 

[joekool]

I did notice that your return line goes from small diameter pipe to larger. That will reduce your head pressure if anything you want the same all the way or from large to small on a pressure line. Same with electrical wire you don't go from small gage to large

 

[AmatuerAuer]

The issue is getting the flow to enter both pipes on the drain, while balancing the water level in the sump through metering the return

 

[redfishbluefish]

I did notice that your return line goes from small diameter pipe to larger. That will reduce your head pressure if anything you want the same all the way or from large to small on a pressure line. Same with electrical wire you don't go from small gage to large

I apologize, but this isn't quite right. There are some funky fluid dynamics going on, and one in particular is reduced frictional loss due to the larger diameter pipe. You're actually better off with the larger diameter pipe....even with the smaller pipe at the beginning. I know it doesn't sound right, but fluid mechanics says otherwise.

 

[AmatuerAuer]

To reiterate - The drain valves needed to be tweaked slightly to ensure water would flor to both fuge and skimmer.

I have been monitoring the water level in DT and sump for any slight imbalance in my return/drain levels. No issues.

Redfish - I take your point on closed/semi closed valves being an issue BUT the diameter of the bulkhead is smaller than the diameter of the semi closed ball valve. That is not a solution, just means the ball valve won't be the cause of a clog it would be the bulkhead..

 

[joekool]

Red your not right at all. Show me one municipalities plumbing or golf cours or pool or house for that mater that goes from a smaller diameter line to a larger diameter pipe. You will not find one on any pressure line. You can stay the same or reduce line size. If your words were true then your house would be plumbed that way. I have many years experience plumbing and your statement is purely untrue.

If your statement was true then if you took a ten foot 3/4" pipe straight up and then a 3" pipe with 3/4" in from bottom same pump and went up ten feet. Your saying that you would have a higher head pressure on the larger diameter then the smaller. Simply not true. I hope your not a plumber.


So anyways now that we got sidetracked you would better off finding a pump with a larger out let or decrease the line size to 3/4 all the way to bulkhead. It goes from small to large to small again. If your worried about the union reducing flow rate do to smaller inside diameter than 3/4 then I would just use a piece of flexible tubing. The flexible tubing will also reduce pump vibrations and noise from reaching the tank. You shouldn't have to valve down a mag9.5 but if you want to you could t off the line near the pump and put the valve on that.

All in all if your happy with flow rate of your system don't worry about it. I was just giving you my opinion on what I would do if it was my tank. I'm certainly not telling you what to do just what I would do.

I will unsubscribe from this thread. Not wanting to hijack your thread going back and forth with anyone over fluid dynamics.
Hope all goes well. Start a tank thread and I will follow you.

 

[YUP]

Here is what I did with my sump with return in middle.

sorry it's a little dirty and need to tidy it up. Been working great for years now, as u can see.

 

[ifarmer]

First. I think having a valves on the drain is asking for trouble. If you need to restrict the water going to the sump then reduce the flow from your return line.

Second, why would you split the drain line to go to the refugium? You should have splitted or T the return line to go to the refugium. That is my opinion

 

[thejuggernaut]

I did notice that your return line goes from small diameter pipe to larger. That will reduce your head pressure if anything you want the same all the way or from large to small on a pressure line. Same with electrical wire you don't go from small gage to large

The whole point is to reduce head pressure. It is a very common practice to increase to the next size pipe over the outlet on the pump. In a low pressure, high volume system, pipe friction causes a significant flow reduction. I definitely don't see how running larger pipe would increase head pressure. It is a common misnomer that water weight plays a role in head pressure, so having a larger pipe with more water in it will increase head pressure. This thinking isn't right. If I get 33 feet of vertical 1" pipe fill it with saltwater and put a valve at the bottom, it will read 14.7 PSI. The same as if the pipe was 6" in diameter, or even in the ocean for that matter. You may have to support the weight of the pipe better, but from the pumps perspective, the static pressure on the pipe will be the same no matter how large the pipe is. Once you crank the pump up, water will start to flow, and the smaller the pipe the more friction, the more back pressure, the higher the relative head pressure.

 

[joekool]

The tank has a pipe from the pump that goes from small to larger back to small. What you are saying about water pressure at the bottom of the pipe is true. Having a larger diameter pipe on the outlet of the pump would apply more pressure to the head of the pump and cause the pump to not be able to pump higher vertically. Friction loss is a factor but not as much as the loss of head height with a larger diameter pipe on top of the pipe.

I guess you should go to every city and tell them they are doing it wrong. And wait every golf course and tell all your neighbors that they should rip out all there plumbing because it's backwards. Wait it's supposed to come from the street @ 1/2" then 3/4" from the ground up and possibly 1" from there. Never ever is anything plumbed like this for a reason. I have plumbed many pump stations, golf courses and houses. If your a plumber you should go back to school.

No it is not common practice to increase the line size after the pump outlet. There is a reason for the outlet to be sized for a certain pipe diameter. It's only okay to increase size on the inlet size.

I suppose my pressure pump on my house should go from 1" to 1.5" to my house. That's hilarious really. If it was to be that way the outlet of the pump would be 1.5" not 1

So anyways back to the thread originator, you have a mag drive with a 3/4" outlet your bulkhead fitting on the tank for return supply is 3/4" use 3/4" pipe from pump to bulk head. Don't go 3/4 to 1 1/4" then back to 3/4" or whatever you did

Plan and simple any pump will push water higher up on a 3/4" outlet with a 3/4" pipe then it will with a larger diameter pipe attached to a 3/4" outlet of said pump.

 

[YUP]

I agree with joe here, as u notice with my setup that's what I did.

 

[YUP]

amatuer, does the water just cascade over ur refug baffle?

 

[YUP]

If you google our type of setup with return in middle you will see some great designs etc. Which I incorporated into my design that I did all myself too I had to use a 38gal as I couldn't squeeze 40 breeder in my stand. Although, the extra height I like for power outage etc. I'm telling ya, I did a lot of research and what some of these guys are saying is correct. They are telling you to do something like my sump. Won't take long to redesign a more efficient setup.

 

[redfishbluefish]

This will be my last post about this because I don't wish to argue. You should believe what you wish to believe, and I'm OK with your belief. I also realize that fluid mechanics and what happens with moving water is not intuitive. You actually what to think one way when in fact the relatively simple math tells you otherwise.


I simply pose this suggestion as my final post on the subject......go to any number of headloss calculators on the internet and input your pump and other details to calculate headloss. Now simply increase the pipe diameter and see how your flow rate increases. This is primarily from an improvement in frictional loss of the smaller diameter pipe. There is some funky flow dynamics also going on....especially with small diameter pipe....but the big killer is friction. On a well know site with a headloss calculator I inputted a MAG 7, which I believe has a 3/4" outflow size, and first used 3/4 inch pipe (5 foot vertical rise, two 90 degree elbows) and this calculated out to 374 gph. I simply changed the pipe diameter to 1 1/2 inches, and the flow rate was now 424 gph. I get more water with the larger pipe because of less frictional loss....even with the small 3/4 outlet size. It's not intuitive, but it's what the simple math tells us....and it's true.

And yes, I've been involved in design of wastewater treatment plants, water treatment plants and one irrigation system on a golf course. It doesn't take a plumber, it takes mechanical engineers and civil engineers to drudge through the calculations....but now we're talking flow, velocity, pressure, friction, and consumption along the way.

 

[thejuggernaut]

The tank has a pipe from the pump that goes from small to larger back to small. What you are saying about water pressure at the bottom of the pipe is true. Having a larger diameter pipe on the outlet of the pump would apply more pressure to the head of the pump and cause the pump to not be able to pump higher vertically. Friction loss is a factor but not as much as the loss of head height with a larger diameter pipe on top of the pipe.

I guess you should go to every city and tell them they are doing it wrong. And wait every golf course and tell all your neighbors that they should rip out all there plumbing because it's backwards. Wait it's supposed to come from the street @ 1/2" then 3/4" from the ground up and possibly 1" from there. Never ever is anything plumbed like this for a reason. I have plumbed many pump stations, golf courses and houses. If your a plumber you should go back to school.

No it is not common practice to increase the line size after the pump outlet. There is a reason for the outlet to be sized for a certain pipe diameter. It's only okay to increase size on the inlet size.

I suppose my pressure pump on my house should go from 1" to 1.5" to my house. That's hilarious really. If it was to be that way the outlet of the pump would be 1.5" not 1

So anyways back to the thread originator, you have a mag drive with a 3/4" outlet your bulkhead fitting on the tank for return supply is 3/4" use 3/4" pipe from pump to bulk head. Don't go 3/4 to 1 1/4" then back to 3/4" or whatever you did

Plan and simple any pump will push water higher up on a 3/4" outlet with a 3/4" pipe then it will with a larger diameter pipe attached to a 3/4" outlet of said pump.

That's not true. Why do you think a larger pipe would slow down the flow? Pipe diameter contributes nothing to the elevation head pressure (downward gravity force) on a water pump. A smaller pipe does increase friction and back pressure on a pump when running. There is no science anywhere that says that a larger pipe will actually slow down water flow. Look at any flow calculator anywhere.

Comparing our flow systems to that of a house is majorly misguided for a many reasons. The primary reason being that almost all fixtures in a house are necked down to a 3/8" valve coming out of the wall. The main exceptions being a bathtub. The reason they neck down to 1/2" lines in a home is because the pipe isn't the limiting factor in home plumbing. An open 1/2" line will flow about 10X more water than is needed. Heck, most fixtures have devices in them to further slow down the amount of water that will come out. Also, a reason home plumbing pipes down is because the larger pipe coming into your house has to be able to service all the fixtures in your house at once. As the plumbing is split off, the piping size is reduced because it will be more than sufficient to feed the one or two fixtures on the line.

If you are trying to push a volume of water through a pipe, and then decide to use a smaller pipe, the only way to get that volume out in the same amount of time is to increase the velocity of the water. That will increase the friction of the water along the pipe walls. Increasing pressure, which decreases flow and pump performance. The opposite is also true. Use a larger pipe, the water velocity slows for a given volume, the pressure goes down, flow goes up. The phenomenon increases the longer the plumbing run. This is a very basic and well understood science of fluid dynamics. Use any flow calculator out there and figure it with the same size pipe of the pump, then increase the size of the pipe up and watch the overall head loss go down, and the flow go up. The calculators aren't wrong, and this is becoming a silly argument because there is no science anywhere to support your claim. You don't have to agree, but you should stop giving out false information to people because they may believe you.

 

[joekool]

Blah blah blah. Calculator this.

So you are a plumber?
Have you ever installed a pump station. Plumbed a house. Or done an irrigation system. If so you would know that nothing is ever plumbed your way.
We don't ever plumb anything like you said.

And I don't care what you say if you pump water vertical the larger diameter pipe will not pump water higher than the pipe that is the same size as the outlet of the pump.

You are miss guided and I'm sure everyone will be able to tell you don't know what your talking about but you can keep going around and tell everyone the wrong way to plumb.

I'll give you the last word because I'm sure you'll have to keep going to try and prove me and the rest of the plumbers in the world wrong. Also you have gone way beound what this thread was here for. Everybody else knows not to plumb a pump like that as replied earlier by another reefer. Just because you don't know how to correctly plumb a pump doesn't mean we all should.

Bye