Herbie Overflow still making noise. Can anyone help?

[sayhy2mark33]

Hi everyone, I understand this is my first post, but I've used this forum a lot in preparing for my Marineland 90G RR set-up. I chose to go with the Herbie sump, using a full siphon on my main line and an emergency/trickle line on my backup. After fine-tuning the main siphon line, which is regulated by a ball valve instead of a gate-valve (I may be regretting due to fine-tuning limitations), the emergency drain line's trickle is making a good bit of noise, despite just a trickle going down the line. As one may expect, it sounds like a trickle of water going down a long, hollow tube. Both drain lines go straight down into my sump. It may not sound that loud, but it echoes across the room. Any ideas how to quiet this thing down? Maybe I just need to adjust it to an even smaller trickle, which is very hard to do with the ball valve. I hear that so many people have "silent" herbie or Beananimal setups. Is this what people are considering silent, or do I still have room for improvement? I'm very picky and I know I'm hoping there's something I'm missing, coming from 15 years of canister filters and knowing a different meaning of silent. Thanks for any help offered.

Link to video showing noise: VID 20140217 232556 878 - YouTube

 

[Russ]

Oh no, you can get much more silent, and we'll help you get it there.

From the video and the description, it looks to me like a lip inside the pipe is causing the water to fall freely inside the pipe, resulting in the splashing when it hits the bottom. I think getting the water to run along the inside pipe wall will fix this for you. If you can't get it to spill over smoothly at the top, I would bet that adding a bend to the drain pipe somewhere would quiet it down. I would go for a 45 or some flexible tubing. I hope I'm explaining what I mean properly. Let me know if this makes sense to you or not.

 

[sayhy2mark33]

Oh no, you can get much more silent, and we'll help you get it there.

From the video and the description, it looks to me like a lip inside the pipe is causing the water to fall freely inside the pipe, resulting in the splashing when it hits the bottom. I think getting the water to run along the inside pipe wall will fix this for you. If you can't get it to spill over smoothly at the top, I would bet that adding a bend to the drain pipe somewhere would quiet it down. I would go for a 45 or some flexible tubing. I hope I'm explaining what I mean properly. Let me know if this makes sense to you or not.

Hi Russ and thanks for lending a hand. I have seen several videos of other people's set-ups, but they're all utilizing rear-drilled tanks, and can manipulate the slope of their drains; something I can't do as much in my cornerflo. I haven't seen videos of anyone doing this in a cornerflow or megaflow setup. I did try to angle my drain inside the overflow at 22 degrees but that didn't stop the noise, or even alleviate it, much. You may be on to something as far as the lip inside the drain goes, since my union does create a lip at about the bottom 1/2 of the bulkhead side drain pipe. Even still, it looks like the water isn't staying completely on the walls of the trickle pipe before it even hits the bulkhead, and is creating drops.

So I can try to angle the trickle drain both inside the overflow and under the bulkhead if you think that will help, but what about the flow of trickled water? Do I have too much flow going into that drain? If so, I need to replace the ball valve with a gate valve; I just don't see such a small adjustment lasting for very long at all, once the tank goes live, but I could be wrong.

 

[Jimbo662]

Have you tried extending pipe for the emergency drain above the water line just a little to see what that does?

 

[Russ]

Hi Russ and thanks for lending a hand. I have seen several videos of other people's set-ups, but they're all utilizing rear-drilled tanks, and can manipulate the slope of their drains; something I can't do as much in my cornerflo. I haven't seen videos of anyone doing this in a cornerflow or megaflow setup. I did try to angle my drain inside the overflow at 22 degrees but that didn't stop the noise, or even alleviate it, much. You may be on to something as far as the lip inside the drain goes, since my union does create a lip at about the bottom 1/2 of the bulkhead side drain pipe. Even still, it looks like the water isn't staying completely on the walls of the trickle pipe before it even hits the bulkhead, and is creating drops.

So I can try to angle the trickle drain both inside the overflow and under the bulkhead if you think that will help, but what about the flow of trickled water? Do I have too much flow going into that drain? If so, I need to replace the ball valve with a gate valve; I just don't see such a small adjustment lasting for very long at all, once the tank goes live, but I could be wrong.

I definitely think getting a gate valve and reducing the flow would help, but would be the more expensive solution. I didn't think you could do much with the pipe inside the overflow, and as you learned too, I think the issue needs addressed lower in the drain. I would try to add something as close to the bulkhead on the underside as you can. In all honesty, I think it would be best to take both approaches. That way you'll have a bigger cushion to work with when the flow changes some due to dirty pumps, stuff growing in the lines, etc. Test fit everything before gluing and you can tweak it a bit as you see what's working for you.

 

[beloyd]

Hey mark33, I'm in the same boat as you, having utilized this amazing forum for the past 6 months while getting my 75 setup -- without ever posting a single comment...until now!

I'm setting up a Herbie drain as well -- have you tried filing the inside edges of the emergency pipe? Instead of the water trickling off the edge, potentially becoming air-born and hitting the bottom -- the chamfered/beveled edge would (in theory) allow the water to slide down the pipe and never drip.

I couldn't tell by the video if you've done this technique or not. Maybe this would help?

- Blake

 

[sayhy2mark33]

Have you tried extending pipe for the emergency drain above the water line just a little to see what that does?

I haven't tried this Jimbo, but how I figure, if I were to do that it'd be used as strictly a dry emergency pipe and then I wouldn't have water skimming over my weir to skim the surface, right?

I definitely think getting a gate valve and reducing the flow would help, but would be the more expensive solution. I didn't think you could do much with the pipe inside the overflow, and as you learned too, I think the issue needs addressed lower in the drain. I would try to add something as close to the bulkhead on the underside as you can. In all honesty, I think it would be best to take both approaches. That way you'll have a bigger cushion to work with when the flow changes some due to dirty pumps, stuff growing in the lines, etc. Test fit everything before gluing and you can tweak it a bit as you see what's working for you.

Makes sense, but just so I understand, you're talking about setting up an elbow just below the bulkhead to put my drain line at an angle, right?

Hey mark33, I'm in the same boat as you, having utilized this amazing forum for the past 6 months while getting my 75 setup -- without ever posting a single comment...until now!

I'm setting up a Herbie drain as well -- have you tried filing the inside edges of the emergency pipe? Instead of the water trickling off the edge, potentially becoming air-born and hitting the bottom -- the chamfered/beveled edge would (in theory) allow the water to slide down the pipe and never drip.

I couldn't tell by the video if you've done this technique or not. Maybe this would help?

- Blake

Hi Blake, I've heard of that trick in the instructional that I read, but I don't understand how to do it, necessarily. If I have a run of pipe some 20 inches long, how would I score it on the inside for the full run of the pipe? What I did was make a small notch at the top of my pipe where water passes through, to at least give it one point of entry for a stream, but it still makes a little noise, as you can tell. I do think this is a great idea, but I don't know of any tools or techniques to achieve it on that run of pipe. I've also thought about beveling the top of the pipe so water slides into it in a more thin sheet rather than over the thick edges of pipe, but I don't know if they have a tool for that as well, or not. Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Jimbo662]

As long as the water level in the overflow box is below the weirs you'll be skimming the top off of the display...then with the emergency drain between the bottom of the weir and above the waterline in the box.

 

[beloyd]

The bevel doesn't have to run the entire length of the pipe -- only for the first 1/8-1/4" of the edge. I've attached some pics to show two different types of bevels.

The copper pipe is utilizing an inner bevel and the other is an outer. You will want to create an inner. All you got to do is take a file of some sort (metal/wood file) and start scraping away until you've created a nice 45º slope on the inside of the pipe. The goal is to create a nice runway for the water to slide down and never become air-born!

Let me know if this all makes sense!

- Blake

 

[beloyd]

An inside look at the final product.

Hope this helps!

 

[sayhy2mark33]

As long as the water level in the overflow box is below the weirs you'll be skimming the top off of the display...then with the emergency drain between the bottom of the weir and above the waterline in the box.

Gotcha. I think you're just simply talking about running a dry emergency line, if I'm understanding correctly. I can lower the waterline by opening my siphon more so it's below my emergency pipe, but then I'm just looking to get a perfectly balanced siphon so it doesn't go down to the siphon drain level, which can be difficult. If all else fails I can try that, but I do like the idea of the emergency drain taking on a little water since something is sure to mess up my perfect siphon. Although a perfect siphon is definitely the quietest option.

The bevel doesn't have to run the entire length of the pipe -- only for the first 1/8-1/4" of the edge. I've attached some pics to show two different types of bevels.



The copper pipe is utilizing an inner bevel and the other is an outer. You will want to create an inner. All you got to do is take a file of some sort (metal/wood file) and start scraping away until you've created a nice 45º slope on the inside of the pipe. The goal is to create a nice runway for the water to slide down and never become air-born!

Let me know if this all makes sense!

- Blake

Blake, this is an awesome suggestion, and the pictures helped me understand, immediately. I'll be doing that first thing tonight and see how it goes. Thanks for your help.

 

[Eric B]

On a herbie style overflow you should not have any water going through the emergency pipe except for an "EMERGENCY"......I would keep the emergency pipe just as it is so it will make noise and alert you to something being wrong with the drain system.......I would say that if your water level is running into your emergency drain then you either have too much flow from your return pump and the main herbie drain can't keep up. This might be because of running the same size pipe for both or something else can't really tell. A couple of things to try to get it fixed would be to lower the water level by either opening the drain ball valve a small bit or installing a ball valve on your return line and throttle back that flow. I have used a herbie as well as bean animal style drains and once they started up the direct siphon I never had water in the emergency pipe unless there was another problem. Hope this helps and you get it fixed as I hate noisy drains.

 

[sayhy2mark33]

On a herbie style overflow you should not have any water going through the emergency pipe except for an "EMERGENCY"......I would keep the emergency pipe just as it is so it will make noise and alert you to something being wrong with the drain system.......I would say that if your water level is running into your emergency drain then you either have too much flow from your return pump and the main herbie drain can't keep up. This might be because of running the same size pipe for both or something else can't really tell. A couple of things to try to get it fixed would be to lower the water level by either opening the drain ball valve a small bit or installing a ball valve on your return line and throttle back that flow. I have used a herbie as well as bean animal style drains and once they started up the direct siphon I never had water in the emergency pipe unless there was another problem. Hope this helps and you get it fixed as I hate noisy drains.

While I agree that not having water hit the emergency drain pipe and that it's a great indicator of blocked flow, I'm not quite sure that a perfect siphon can just be achieved here, in theory. Once the water level starts to lower below the emergency pipe, it continues to lower down to the siphon drain and eventually breaks the siphon. When you ran a Herbie drain, did your perfect siphon never touch either standpipe top, once engaged?

Also for everyone who runs a Herbie, do the ends of my drains need to maintain a steady depth below the water level in my sump, for the siphon to work the same? I'm beginning to think yes, and thus I'd need to make a glass wall in my sump to maintain the drain water level so my pipes are submerged at the same depth, no matter the evaporation levels in the sump.

 

[beloyd]

On a herbie style overflow you should not have any water going through the emergency pipe except for an "EMERGENCY"......I would keep the emergency pipe just as it is so it will make noise and alert you to something being wrong with the drain system.......I would say that if your water level is running into your emergency drain then you either have too much flow from your return pump and the main herbie drain can't keep up. This might be because of running the same size pipe for both or something else can't really tell. A couple of things to try to get it fixed would be to lower the water level by either opening the drain ball valve a small bit or installing a ball valve on your return line and throttle back that flow. I have used a herbie as well as bean animal style drains and once they started up the direct siphon I never had water in the emergency pipe unless there was another problem. Hope this helps and you get it fixed as I hate noisy drains.

There are pros and cons to having the emergency drain running with a trickle or completely dry. I'm sure Mark has read this page [http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/] and is familiar with the arguments. I am running the emergency with a trickle because I don't like having to fine tuning the valve twice a week (or more) to match the return pump perfectly. I think this is a better route since Mark only has the Herbie and not a combination Herbie/Bean as you do.

- Blake

 

[sayhy2mark33]

Oh no, you can get much more silent, and we'll help you get it there.

From the video and the description, it looks to me like a lip inside the pipe is causing the water to fall freely inside the pipe, resulting in the splashing when it hits the bottom. I think getting the water to run along the inside pipe wall will fix this for you. If you can't get it to spill over smoothly at the top, I would bet that adding a bend to the drain pipe somewhere would quiet it down. I would go for a 45 or some flexible tubing. I hope I'm explaining what I mean properly. Let me know if this makes sense to you or not.

Also, Russ, did you not use unions below your emergency standpipe, to avoid the sound of water splashing? I'm wondering if that union could continue to cause noise unless I angle it.

 

[Eric B]

There are pros and cons to having the emergency drain running with a trickle or completely dry. I'm sure Mark has read this page [http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/] and is familiar with the arguments. I am running the emergency with a trickle because I don't like having to fine tuning the valve twice a week (or more) to match the return pump perfectly. I think this is a better route since Mark only has the Herbie and not a combination Herbie/Bean as you do.

- Blake

Blake there is no combination of a Herbie/Bean you either run one or the other as herbie is done with 2 pipes and bean is completed with 3 pipes! I have run both on different systems and once set up properly never had to touch them again so I was just trying to toss out suggestions to the original poster on a possible problem and maybe a fix.

 

[Eric B]

While I agree that not having water hit the emergency drain pipe and that it's a great indicator of blocked flow, I'm not quite sure that a perfect siphon can just be achieved here, in theory. Once the water level starts to lower below the emergency pipe, it continues to lower down to the siphon drain and eventually breaks the siphon. When you ran a Herbie drain, did your perfect siphon never touch either standpipe top, once engaged?

Also for everyone who runs a Herbie, do the ends of my drains need to maintain a steady depth below the water level in my sump, for the siphon to work the same? I'm beginning to think yes, and thus I'd need to make a glass wall in my sump to maintain the drain water level so my pipes are submerged at the same depth, no matter the evaporation levels in the sump.

When I ran a herbie overflow I could maintain the water level about 3-4" above the siphon drain and that is where it stayed unless there was something wrong then water level rose up to the emergency drain and I would hear it.

You second question leads me to ask another question and that would be how many overflows do you have in the tank? Is it just 1 corner overflow or do you have 2 corner overflows? If just 1 overflow what size return plumbing and drain plumbing do you use and what return pump and do you have a ball valve to adjust the return flow to the tank? It is kinda hard to fix it without seeing it in person or at least knowing a little more about the tank. Also do you run anything else off of the return pump/plumbing?

 

[beloyd]

Blake there is no combination of a Herbie/Bean you either run one or the other as herbie is done with 2 pipes and bean is completed with 3 pipes! I have run both on different systems and once set up properly never had to touch them again so I was just trying to toss out suggestions to the original poster on a possible problem and maybe a fix.

Oh wow that's impressive! So you haven't experienced any calcium/algae/slime buildup that would restrict the flow in the drain that would cause the water level to rise?

 

[sayhy2mark33]

When I ran a herbie overflow I could maintain the water level about 3-4" above the siphon drain and that is where it stayed unless there was something wrong then water level rose up to the emergency drain and I would hear it.

You second question leads me to ask another question and that would be how many overflows do you have in the tank? Is it just 1 corner overflow or do you have 2 corner overflows? If just 1 overflow what size return plumbing and drain plumbing do you use and what return pump and do you have a ball valve to adjust the return flow to the tank? It is kinda hard to fix it without seeing it in person or at least knowing a little more about the tank. Also do you run anything else off of the return pump/plumbing?

The second question was more for future knowledge. I imagine balancing two Herbies would be very tough. I have one corner overflow, from an Aqueon 2300 pump. My return plumbing is 3/4" and the drain plumbing is 1". With a straight line, the Aqueon pushes juuust enough water to allow water to flow over my top weir, while the rest flows through the bottom weir (picture attached of Marineland cornerflo in case you need visual). The aqueon's flow rate can be adjusted on the pump. When I installed a swing check valve on the pump, it no longer pushes enough water to force over the top weir, thus no surface skimming. This is another problem I have, but I guess I can tackle that one later unless you have any advice there. My aqueon is also pretty loud, so I'm thinking of replacing.

 

[sayhy2mark33]

Also, the Aqueon is rated to like 608 gph, but I'm sure the swing check valve is reducing that. I'm wondering if a ball check valve wouldn't restrict flow as much?