Ro/di trouble shooting assistance needed

Saltgator · Aug 18, 2014

I own a brs 75 gpd ro/di unit. My water is well water. Tds coming in fluctuate depending on the sun, afternoon tds is roughly 545-610, evening tds (sun down/night) is 430-490.
Just changed all the filters out 1 week ago (5 micron sediment, 1 micron carbon block, di resin) and did a little trial. My di resin has been getting exhausted in 1 week! Thinking it was CO2, I had the ro unit fill my brute container that housed an air stone and a 500gph Pump. After 24 hrs, I turned a additional powerhead on that sent the ro water thru the di chamber.

Prior to the water going to the di, all smelled good and visually looked good. After the di, the water felt slimy and had a horrible smell. Not a well water smell.

Ideas or thoughts or questions? I'm trying to figure this out but calling on y'all. Thanks

cdness · Aug 18, 2014

Saltgator said:
Tds coming in fluctuate depending on the sun, afternoon tds is roughly 545-610, evening tds (sun down/night) is 430-490.

Never heard this before... Do you have an outdoor holding tank? The water should never come in contact with direct sunlight so I find this very interesting... It may be a shallow well and the temp of the water is affected. Still odd and interesting.

Our water in West Fargo is all well water through the city water plumbing system. I have the same issue of DI exhausted in about a week. It is the CO2 for sure.

No idea where the smell is coming from unless it picked up something in the first brute container.

Saltgator · Aug 18, 2014

cdness said:
Never heard this before... Do you have an outdoor holding tank? The water should never come in contact with direct sunlight so I find this very interesting... It may be a shallow well and the temp of the water is affected. Still odd and interesting.

Our water in West Fargo is all well water through the city water plumbing system. I have the same issue of DI exhausted in about a week. It is the CO2 for sure.

No idea where the smell is coming from unless it picked up something in the first brute container.

I pulled my well about well months ago to fix a crack. I'm about 120 down. My water must be having issues with the temp because it doesn't see light. I wouldn't have believed it either unless I seen my tds meter change when I checked.

As far as the smell, I think the second batch of resin just exhausted so quickly I didn't catch it and it fouled out the water. I bleached all my brute containers, filled them 3 times and scrubbed them back down with fresh water. Not sure but I think the slime was also caused by the fouled out resin.

wandoshane · Aug 18, 2014

ro di

I'm on a well and my TDS is about 1500 (no house filter coming in so really high). my di resin gets used up quick as well normally 2 canisters per month. I use it for top off water on250 gal. reef. Might want to check the valve that makes it RO shut off when not producing water. I have heard of alot of them failing.

Saltgator said:
I pulled my well about well months ago to fix a crack. I'm about 120 down. My water must be having issues with the temp because it doesn't see light. I wouldn't have believed it either unless I seen my tds meter change when I checked.

As far as the smell, I think the second batch of resin just exhausted so quickly I didn't catch it and it fouled out the water. I bleached all my brute containers, filled them 3 times and scrubbed them back down with fresh water. Not sure but I think the slime was also caused by the fouled out resin.

AZDesertRat · Aug 18, 2014

I have never heard of TDS fluctuating like that. I am more inclined to believe the TDS fluctuations are temperature related, especially if you are using an inline TDS meter or a handheld that is not ATC compensated.

Well TDS is usually pretty steady unless you are under the influence of nearby surface water which may causes changes after storm events and runoff into the streams, rivers or lakes.

What is your RO only TDS? What is the water temperature? What is your exact measured waste ratio? Do you know your water hardness? What is your water pressure at the membrane?
What DI resin are you using and is it fresh and packed properly? If you buy in bulk, do you buy no more than 6 months worth and either repackage in individual 20 oz vacuum sealed bags or at least vaccum seal it after taking some out and store it in the refrigerator so it stays fresh? DI has a relatively short shelf life, even when stored properly.

Have you tried measuring the CO2 level of the water? If you know your pH and your alkalinity you can use the nomograph in this link to get a pretty good idea or you can order a CO2 test kit from many of the RO vendors. Aerating the water in the brute trashcan isn't very effective, a Co2 degassing column is usually something like a 3" or 4" PVC pipe which the water drops down through and air bubbles up from close to the bottom so you get a good air/water contact to strip the Co2.

FAQ
http://spectrapure.com/manuals/CO2_SYSTEM.pdf

Saltgator · Aug 18, 2014

AZDesertRat said:
I have never heard of TDS fluctuating like that. I am more inclined to believe the TDS fluctuations are temperature related, especially if you are using an inline TDS meter or a handheld that is not ATC compensated.

Well TDS is usually pretty steady unless you are under the influence of nearby surface water which may causes changes after storm events and runoff into the streams, rivers or lakes.

What is your RO only TDS? What is the water temperature? What is your exact measured waste ratio? Do you know your water hardness? What is your water pressure at the membrane?
What DI resin are you using and is it fresh and packed properly? If you buy in bulk, do you buy no more than 6 months worth and either repackage in individual 20 oz vacuum sealed bags or at least vaccum seal it after taking some out and store it in the refrigerator so it stays fresh? DI has a relatively short shelf life, even when stored properly.

Have you tried measuring the CO2 level of the water? If you know your pH and your alkalinity you can use the nomograph in this link to get a pretty good idea or you can order a CO2 test kit from many of the RO vendors. Aerating the water in the brute trashcan isn't very effective, a Co2 degassing column is usually something like a 3" or 4" PVC pipe which the water drops down through and air bubbles up from close to the bottom so you get a good air/water contact to strip the Co2.

FAQ
http://spectrapure.com/manuals/CO2_SYSTEM.pdf

I almost pm'd you. But figured you'd see the thread.
Hopefully I answer the questions. Here goes:
Tds of ro is 25.
Inline tds meter, probably not atc.
Pressure @ ro is 47-55 without booster, booster can be 100+.
Bulk di resin. In baggie but baggie sealed in vacuum seal.
Water hardness is unknown.
Water temp is 73.
Unknown co2
Waste ratio is unknown but high (visually noticing).

AZDesertRat · Aug 18, 2014

I think you have a bad membrane. Even if we said your TDS averaged 600 from the tap and your RO only is 25 that means the rejection rate is only 95.8%. If you were to get a better membrane and increase that to 98% the RO only TDS would be around 12 and your DI would last at least twice as long. Increase that rejection rate to 99% and your RO only TDS would be 6 or less and the DI life would probably quadruple. it does not take long to pay for a RO membrane with DI savings like that.

My tap TDS is around 560 to 630 depending on the source blends they are using at the time, never is it below 550 and we do have measurable Co2 in our water. When I was using an off the shelf Dow Filmtec 75 GPD RO membrane I could get the TDS down to no better than 13-15 from the RO only and my DI lasted almost exactly 150 gallons per cartridge no matter what resin I was using or how fresh it was. I even bought a brand new 75 GPD RO membrane and hand carried it down the street to Watts Premier and had them bench test it for me with the same results.

I sold the previous two RO/DI systems and bought one with a treated and hand tested guaranteed to be better than 98% rejection rate RO membrane and my RO only TDS immediately dropped to between 2 and 3. DI life went from 150 gallons to 830 measured gallons. I know I sound like a broken record or a salesman but in my personal experience there really is a difference in Spectrapure RO membranes and DI resins. I have no connection to them at all other than being an end user like everyone else but I am a certified water treatment plant operator, supervisor and manager and since I am anal about water quality I keep log books on my filter replacements and DI life.

Their 99% guaranteed rejection rate membranes are only $54.99 and they really do work.
NEW 99 Percent Rejection SpectraSelect Plus? 90-GPD RO Membrane
FAQ p.2

I would also highly recommend tossing the inline TDS meter and getting a good $25 ATC handheld like the HM Digital TDS-3, TDS-4TM or AP-1. They all have a built in digital thermometer too so serve dual purpose plus they allow you to test your tap water, ATO storage, bottled water, LFS etc. Inlines are not temperature compensated so if the air temperature and water temperature are not exactly the same they are off. Rarely do you find the air and water the same and the other bad thing is they cannot be calibrated. I have two dual inlines on my dual DI system but never even use them, I prefer the low range accuracy of the handhelds.

Saltgator · Aug 18, 2014

AZDesertRat said:
I think you have a bad membrane. Even if we said your TDS averaged 600 from the tap and your RO only is 25 that means the rejection rate is only 95.8%. If you were to get a better membrane and increase that to 98% the RO only TDS would be around 12 and your DI would last at least twice as long. Increase that rejection rate to 99% and your RO only TDS would be 6 or less and the DI life would probably quadruple. it does not take long to pay for a RO membrane with DI savings like that.

My tap TDS is around 560 to 630 depending on the source blends they are using at the time, never is it below 550 and we do have measurable Co2 in our water. When I was using an off the shelf Dow Filmtec 75 GPD RO membrane I could get the TDS down to no better than 13-15 from the RO only and my DI lasted almost exactly 150 gallons per cartridge no matter what resin I was using or how fresh it was. I even bought a brand new 75 GPD RO membrane and hand carried it down the street to Watts Premier and had them bench test it for me with the same results.

I sold the previous two RO/DI systems and bought one with a treated and hand tested guaranteed to be better than 98% rejection rate RO membrane and my RO only TDS immediately dropped to between 2 and 3. DI life went from 150 gallons to 830 measured gallons. I know I sound like a broken record or a salesman but in my personal experience there really is a difference in Spectrapure RO membranes and DI resins. I have no connection to them at all other than being an end user like everyone else but I am a certified water treatment plant operator, supervisor and manager and since I am anal about water quality I keep log books on my filter replacements and DI life.

Their 99% guaranteed rejection rate membranes are only $54.99 and they really do work.
NEW 99 Percent Rejection SpectraSelect Plus? 90-GPD RO Membrane
FAQ p.2

I would also highly recommend tossing the inline TDS meter and getting a good $25 ATC handheld like the HM Digital TDS-3, TDS-4TM or AP-1. They all have a built in digital thermometer too so serve dual purpose plus they allow you to test your tap water, ATO storage, bottled water, LFS etc. Inlines are not temperature compensated so if the air temperature and water temperature are not exactly the same they are off. Rarely do you find the air and water the same and the other bad thing is they cannot be calibrated. I have two dual inlines on my dual DI system but never even use them, I prefer the low range accuracy of the handhelds.

Awesome. Membrane will be changed asap. I'll try to find a handheld tds with atc. Thanks a bunch.

Question: should I go with the 90-GPD listed above or try to find a 75 gpd 99% rejection membrane? If I went with the 90, I need to change the flow restrictor right?

Opus · Aug 18, 2014

If you go with the 90gal membrane you will need a new flow restrictor. I plan to move from my 75gal membrane to the spectrapure in the next couple of months and was picing them last week. The restrictor should only cost $3 or $4.

Saltgator · Aug 18, 2014

Opus said:
If you go with the 90gal membrane you will need a new flow restrictor. I plan to move from my 75gal membrane to the spectrapure in the next couple of months and was picing them last week. The restrictor should only cost $3 or $4.

Cool. I appreciate it.

AZDesertRat · Aug 18, 2014

The Spectrapure membrane starts life as a 75 GPD Dow Filmtec but is then specially treated using a proprietary process then bench tested for quality control. You should always change the flow restrictor regardless of which membrane you buy.

You will not find a 75 GPD, 99% guaranteed membrane. There are only two vendors I am aware of that test their membranes, Spectrapure and Buckeye Hydro but I am not sure of Buckeyes guarantees or if they treat them before testing.

racin2438 · Aug 18, 2014

Wow.. That's unreal...... And I thought ours was high.

Incoming TDS: 60--75

Outgoing: 0--3

I change out the resin chamber every 4--6 weeks.

AZDesertRat · Aug 18, 2014

The national average TDS is about 250. Some very good areas are 50 or less and most of the Desert Southwest is 500 to over 1600.

Saltgator · Aug 27, 2014

Alright AZDesertRat, more help needed. I removed my di (which smelled horrible) and left the canister empty (no cartridge or resin). Ran the water as I typically would @ 65 psi but turned on the manual flush for the membrane and ran it for 5+ minutes. Once the time elapsed, I started to fill the unit again (still without any di, just the empty stage). Tds coming in is @ 621, outgoing is 08. Temp is roughly 76. So, is the membrane bad in your opinion or should I be concerned with the di resin I previously purchased and possibly the Co2 in the water? Thanks

AZDesertRat · Aug 28, 2014

If your tap water TDS is 621 and the RO only TDS is 8 that means your membrane rejection rate or removal efficiency is 98.7% which is very good.
If the DI smelled that means it is either exhausted or is new and needs rinsing up. Its usually an indicator of being exhausted.

Saltgator · Aug 28, 2014

AZDesertRat said:
If your tap water TDS is 621 and the RO only TDS is 8 that means your membrane rejection rate or removal efficiency is 98.7% which is very good.
If the DI smelled that means it is either exhausted or is new and needs rinsing up. Its usually an indicator of being exhausted.

Thanks. I'll hold off on the new membrane atm. Other than brs, any well no bulk di resin sellers that seal (vacuum) their resin? I think my mistakes were the place of purchase on resin.

AZDesertRat · Aug 28, 2014

Spectrapure custom lends every ounce of their own DI resin for specific purposes then vacuum seals it in mylar foil bags. I never used to buy more than I could use in a 6 month period then split it up in individual 20 oz portions and used the Wife's Seal A Meal to reseal them and stored them in the bottom or back of the fridge. With Spectrapure's MaxCap and SilicaBuster resins though I am getting a year out of each MaxCap and 3 years out of a single SilicaBuster so no longer buy bulk resin and it has saved me a ton of money. My softened tap TDS is between 560 and 830, my RO only out of the 99% membrane is between 2 and 3 and of course the DI is 0 from both cartridges and we do have measurable CO2 in Phoenix waters.

Saltgator · Aug 28, 2014

Now you got me thinking about the Maxcap and the silicabuster. Might have to try that instead of bulk resin

AZDesertRat · Aug 28, 2014

When my DI life went from 150 total gallons to 830 gallons on the very first Maxcap and 3000 on the first SilicaBuster it convinced me. The MaxCaps have been over 1000 gallonssince that first one and I'm past 3,000 on the SilicaBuste rand still going. I bought a new Super SilicaBuster with 30% more capacity and have not needed to change it yet so it sits in the fridge.