Paletta Method Miracle Mud

[MRRBW]

I'm in the process of researching my tank upgrade and will be adding a sump to the system. (My current tank has an intank filter box overflow thing - old DAS aquarium). I like and understand the logic of the miracle mud method refugium/ filtration, but I have been reading a lot of negative reports about it. If I look at Mike Paletta's tanks, they are clearly stunning and thriving. Obviously his success is more than just his use of MM, but I'm curious to know what it is about MM that I may be overlooking. Any positive or negative insights are greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

 

[Bpb]

Following. Read tons of negative reviews as well, 99% of which from people who don't use it and never have. Just knocking the theory claiming it to
Be snake oil on paper. Paletta has great results with it. I also have a local friend with tremendous results using it as well. Would love to try it but my tank is established and I'm afraid to change such a massive variable as adding mud

 

[kevantheman35]

I've been on the fence about using it for awhile. I've read of samples of MM being analyzed and the results showing no oceanic substances at all. It bothers me a little that Paletta is good friends with the creator of MM and hope that hasn't biased his reviews. His tanks do look great and I value his knowledge and lectures.

 

[Diesel]

I know Mike for a while now and not sure if he's still using it but in one of our discussions we talked about it and we both agreed on something.
Lets just look at the name for a second............ MIRACLE MUD.............
Lets just say there's is nothing miracle in this hobby, it's all time and effort.
I'm sure there are some working parts in there but we have to be always realistic in this hobby and that's why discussions like this are a learning process to all.
Sure thing more hobbyist will chime in.

 

[Bpb]

They could change the name to "refugium substrate" and it would be all the same. Just a name. Still curious on actual user experince. Not what an independent study has released on whether it is actually harvested from the ocean.

 

[BENT STIX]

I run a Miracle Mud system. Does it help? I don't know. I know this tank has been the most successful I've ever had. Best looking fish and corals of any of my tanks over the years. However I still run a skimmer socks no4 stones and a UV. So who knows.

 

[MRRBW]

Beautiful tank BENT STIX, @Bpb - I agree, I'm not terribly swayed by whether the mud comes from the ocean or not, (a lot of the stuff we use and add is not related to the ocean either, ie all those that carbin dose), it's also hard to take advice from those who have never used it either as it seems to be filled with bandwagon negativity. @kevantheman35 - I agree, biased opinions are worrisome, in any setting, but these guys aren't industry leaders by being biased, so I'm not sure how much of a bias has been created. @Diesel - I agree, no miracles, that said, people focus on the name too much, it's just marketing. Any reefer knows there are no miracles, just work and time.
That said - if Mike is no longer using it, I would love to know why. I would also love to hear from others who have used it or know of others who use it and what their views are on it. I've read that it can be labour intensive as well. I recently watched the debate for and against refugiums as a whole from Macna last year, and well, it is even more confusing now. It seems that you can do just as well having a bare sump with bioballs, skim like crazy and carbon dose. Thoughts?

 

[Zacco]

I've been contemplating on using MM on my new 40 breeder build. This is going to be a bare bottom display, so I feel that I need some sort of substrate in the refugium for Microfauna/Infauna to live in, other than live rock. Either way I go, (MM or live sand) I will be putting it in a shallow refugium tray or Tupperware tray so that it is easily removed. Would Mangroves benefit for being rooted in Miracle Mud? One would think yes. I may start by putting in a small tray of MM (about half the size of my refugium section) and plant some mangroves in it along with the floating Chaetomorpha.

 

[kv69]

I will be finished converting to barebottom as well in a week or so. i am only skimming and dosing kalc and vinegar, as well as carbon and gfo reactors. I am almost there now and my system has never looked better. And i have also considered adding a miracle mud tray. Following...

 

[BENT STIX]

My mangroves love the mud. They grow at an insane rate.

 

[ja4207]

This stuff is flat hocus pocus plain and simple.

Here's a link of an elemental analyst into the composition claims of ecosystems http://www.reefs.org/library/testing/miraclemud.

Conclusion for those that don't want to read the the findings

The analysis indicates that Miracle Mud is 30% silicon. This mostly likely exists in Miracle Mud as silicon dioxide, which is most commonly found in nature as quartz. As pointed out by chemist Randy Holmes-Farley, the molecular weight of silicon makes up less than half the molecular weight of silicon dioxide. So if the silicon present is all in the form of silicon dioxide, then Miracle Mud is more than 63% quartz sand. This seems to be confirmed by the photos.

The high levels of metals (especially Aluminum, Iron and Titanium) are also a point of concern.

In addition, no traces of any marine sediment were found in any microscopic examination - no oolitic sand grains, no shell fragments, no diatoms or any other remnants of marine life. An acid test conducted by Shane Graber indicates that no carbonates are present in Miracle Mud. It is difficult to reconcile these facts with the manufacturer's claim that "Miracle Mud is 80% oceanic mud."

 

[d2mini]

I'm setting up my mangrove tank this weekend.
A couple inches of Walt Smith's Fiji Mud, and then the rest of the DSB will be regular aragonite sand.
It's a separate tank, connected to the rest of the system, and can always be disconnected if need be.
I've had Miracle Mud in my sump before and it never did anything for me one way or the other.

 

[Zacco]

This stuff is flat hocus pocus plain and simple.

Here's a link of an elemental analyst into the composition claims of ecosystems http://www.reefs.org/library/testing/miraclemud.

Conclusion for those that don't want to read the the findings

OK. So with that being said, do we bag the Miracle Mud and start looking at a Fiji Mud Analysis.

 

[Zacco]

What about this sludge in a can?

 

[ja4207]

OK. So with that being said, do we bag the Miracle Mud and start looking at a Fiji Mud Analysis.

Not sure, I've not heard of this stuff until now. Personally I would not put anything in my system with out a little analysis from an independent body.

 

[Diesel]

Just had some Cyber Space coffee with Mike and he's still using it.
Maybe he can chime in if not I'll post later what he told me.
Of course I never used this MM or Fiji mud but found it interesting enough to stick my nose in it a bit deeper.

 

[ja4207]

Love to hear from either.

 

[Zacco]

Not sure, I've not heard of this stuff until now. Personally I would not put anything in my system with out a little analysis from an independent body.

True enough. Im seaching the net for some info/analysis on Fiji Mud.

 

[d2mini]

The only reason I'm using the fiji mud in my mangrove setup is because I wanted that consistency substrate for the mangrove roots to eventually hit.
I wouldn't bother with using it in a small section of my sump.
Had it in a display fuge with no other substrate and it was a PITA.
Touching it would kick up a cloud of "smoke" and that tank ended up being a breeding ground for HA that took over everything else. Nothing in the rest of my system.
Don't know if it was the mud releasing built up phosphates after a while or what it was, but just FYI.

 

[MRRBW]

So not to be disruptor of the peace - but people love to throw out studies of analyses that the vast majority simply do not understand. The equivalent of people protesting the presence of dihydrogen oxide coming from our taps. Yes the analysis of MM is not what some may have expected, but that does not mean it does not come from the ocean. I don't know where the MM is collected, but here is study that performed showing the chemical analysis of ocean sediment off the coast of California - very closely resembling what it found in MM, at least in the quantity of SiO2. http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/c1198/chapters/101-115_Chem.pdf
That said, I'm not interested in becoming a chemistry major to assess the validity of each chemical compound in it, but I am interested in user experience. I do value negative feedback, but it can't be based on studies that don't show any evaluative performance of MM. I'm not 100% sold on it either, which is why I'm throwing out the question to the collective on here. Having seen so many successful tanks with refugiums and without, I am interested in knowing why some had success and why others have not. Following advice from Julian Sprung, mangroves and refugiums are the way to go, his tanks are spectacular. Same as for Mike Palleta. It would be interesting to have either of them chime in, not sure if they take the time to come on these forums though. Either way hearing from people's history with this stuff is very valuable, such as dust storms in the refugium brought to our attention by d2mini. I apologize for the tongue in cheek reply, but I find people throw studies around too freely. I'm more interested in user experience, either personal or via observation of someone who has. Love to hear from more people on the subject! Love all the comments and feedback so far!