Used Prazipro to treat Black Ich and it got worse

[QotD]

So I've had new tangs in my quarantine for a little over a week now (Yellow, Sailfin and Blonde Naso). The Yellow Tang who died a few days ago (which seemed pretty sudden as its behavior seemed normal the night before). Then yesterday I noticed subtle black spots all over the blonde naso tang. It had to be really close to the glass to see them. After researching online and concluding it was Black Ich I treated the tank with Prazipro as directed on the bottle last night. This morning there are WAY more black spots, they are obvious from across the room, and they have also appeared on the Sailfin.

Is there something else I should do to treat this? I definitely was not expecting it to get worse after treatment.

 

[Deinonych]

Can you post a picture of the affected fish?

 

[Humblefish]

Can you post a picture of the affected fish?

+1 Some pics would be great to confirm this is indeed black ich. Formalin is an alternative treatment.

Black Ich:

Symptoms - This looks like tiny black dots on the body or fins. Black ich is caused by an infestation of turbellarian flatworms and is mostly seen in tangs. It is “ich†in name only and requires an entirely different treatment than Cryptocaryon irritans.

Treatment options – Prazipro, or formalin bath.

 

[Humblefish]

A little curveball about treating with formalin: I've read at least 2 or 3 anecdotal accounts where the poster claimed formalin treated fish don't live past 18 months. Personally, I haven't had that experience... but I just wanted to throw it out there.

Formalin: Treats Brooklynella and provides temporary relief for Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium). Also may be used as temporary relief, or even as an alternative treatment, for worms such as flukes and black ich.

How To Treat - Formalin is very interesting because its potential is not fully known. It is best administered in a bath solution for 30-45 minutes, following the dosage instructions on whatever bottle you use; or at 150 ppm if using "100% formalin" (ex. Formalin-MS). The bath should be done in a large glass bowl or container, and temperature should match the tank the fish is coming from. A bucket is not advised as plastic may absorb some of the medication and then leach it back out during future use. It is imperative that you heavily aerate the bath solution for at least 30 minutes before and also during treatment to compensate for oxygen depletion. The fish should be placed in a premixed bath solution. DO NOT add more formalin after the fish is already in the bath.

For Brooklynella, multiple baths may be required (so long as symptoms persist), but it’s important to give the fish a day to recuperate in-between baths. Formalin has also been used as alternative treatment for external worms such as flukes and black ich. However, at least 2 baths are required (7 days apart) for the same reason described when using Prazipro. For all of the above, post treatment, the fish should not be returned to the same tank/water he came from to prevent reinfection.

You can dose formalin directly in a quarantine tank, but this can be risky due to the harshness of formalin and how quickly it can deplete the water of oxygen. Providing additional gas exchange to the QT is a must! A fish being treated must be monitored closely and should be removed if showing signs of distress - this applies when treating in QT or in the bath solution.

Pros - Treats or provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases. In some cases, formalin can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Formalin contains formaldehyde, a known carcinogen. Therefore, precautions must be taken when using it. Preventing your skin from coming in contact with it by wearing water proof gloves and not breathing in any fumes by wearing a face mask is highly recommended. Formalin also can be harsh on the fish and will quickly deplete oxygen from the water. In some areas, the purchase of formalin is prohibited.

 

[QotD]

Here is the Pic. I couldn't get a good one of the Sailfin

 

[QotD]

I have two samples of that Blue Life Safety Stop Rapid Fish Quarantine, would that work as the formalin bath? I was hoping for something where I could leave the fish in the tank so as not to stress them out more, but if the Prazipro is supposed to work better than it did I guess I don't have another option?

 

[Humblefish]

That's not black ich. Some of the spots are too big. Best guess would be a bacterial infection. You need to treat with antibiotics ASAP.

Bacterial infections:

Symptoms - Sometimes it's self-describing: Popeye/cloudy eyes, fin & tail rot, dropsy (bloated fish), etc. But some other bacterial infections, such as furunculosis, hemorrhagic septicemia, etc., can have varying visible symptoms. Any redness or open sores/wounds on a fish should be viewed with suspicion. Also, a white film or fungus-looking growth may denote a bacterial infection. It’s important to note that in many cases a bacterial infection is usually secondary in nature to a parasitic infestation such as ich, meaning if a fish has been battling ich for a while then his immune system has been lowered. This makes infection more likely for many opportunistic, harmful bacteria.

Treatment options - Broad spectrum antibiotic medication i.e. one that treats both gram-positive and gram-negative bacterial diseases. Examples of this include Furan-2, Kanamycin aka Seachem Kanaplex, Nitrofuracin Green Powder, Triple Sulfa Powder, or a combination of using both Erythromycin & Minocycline. The latter can be accomplished (albeit expensively) by using freshwater Maracyn 1 & 2 and then doubling the dosage for saltwater use. When battling a particularly nasty bacterial infection, combining Furan-2, Kanaplex and metronidazole (ex. Seachem Metronidazole) can be very effective (and safe). Props to “hedgedrew” for enlightening me of this.

Antibiotics: Treats bacterial infections, which are oftentimes “secondary” to preexisting parasitic infestations.

How To Treat - Follow the directions on the label of whatever product you are using. Always use a broad spectrum antibiotic medication i.e. one that treats both gram-positive and gram-negative bacterial diseases (very important). Examples of this include Furan-2, Kanamycin aka Seachem Kanaplex, Nitrofuracin Green Powder, Triple Sulfa Powder or a combination of using both Erythromycin & Minocycline. The latter can be accomplished (albeit expensively) by using freshwater Maracyn 1 & 2 and then doubling the dosage for saltwater use. When battling a particularly nasty bacterial infection, combining Furan-2, Kanaplex and metronidazole (ex. Seachem Metronidazole) can be very effective (and safe). Props to “hedgedrew” for enlightening me of this.

Normally you have to do 4 doses to complete a full course of treatment. The instructions may say to dose every 24 hours, and perform water changes at certain intervals. In my experience, you often have to do 2 full courses of treatment (or 8 doses total) before a fish will show signs of improvement (antibiotics are notoriously slow acting with fish). If a fish shows no signs of improvement after the second full course, then it’s time to try a completely different medication. Just like with humans, sometimes a certain fish will respond better to a different antibiotic. You can run activated carbon at any time when you wish to end treatment.

Pros - One of the few medications that can safely be mixed with others. You can use antibiotics in conjunction with just about everything.

Cons/Side Effects - Appetite suppression, depletes the water of oxygen (so provide additional gas exchange).

 

[QotD]

Ok thank you! I'm off to the store now.

 

[QotD]

Well since coming back from the store it went from hiding in the back to now swimming crazily against the glass in the front of the tank. It's belly also looks like it's starting to swell.

 

[Humblefish]

Well since coming back from the store it went from hiding in the back to now swimming crazily against the glass in the front of the tank. It's belly also looks like it's starting to swell.

I would hit the entire QT with Furan-2, Kanaplex and metronidazole (ex. Seachem Metroplex). The first two are compatible antibiotics, while metronidazole should take care of any internal/intestinal parasites. I fear you are dealing with an aggressive gram negative bacterial disease here and are headed for a wipe-out unless you take prompt action.

 

[QotD]

OK all added.
This might be a silly question... but I know when giving my kids antibiotics, it also tends to kill the beneficial bacteria leading to other problems... Should I be adding something like Seachem Stability to the tank as well?
Thanks again for all your help. Hopefully things work out for the best.

 

[Humblefish]

OK all added.
This might be a silly question... but I know when giving my kids antibiotics, it also tends to kill the beneficial bacteria leading to other problems... Should I be adding something like Seachem Stability to the tank as well?
Thanks again for all your help. Hopefully things work out for the best.

Antibiotics will put a dent in your nitrifying bacteria population, but IME usually not enough to completely wipe out the bio-filter. Still, monitoring ammonia would be prudent. I use a Seachem Ammonia Alert badge (see pic below) for constant monitoring.

 

[TJ's Reef]

It is absolutely AWESOME to have you aboard here on R2R Humblefish cannot thank you enough for being a Supporting Member helping others in need with reasonable and sound advice on treatment for our finned pets.

Cheers, Todd

 

[Humblefish]

It is absolutely AWESOME to have you aboard here on R2R @Humblefish cannot thank you enough for being a Supporting Member helping others in need with reasonable and sound advice on treatment for our finned pets.

Cheers, Todd

Thank you, Todd! It's great to be here.

I'd also like to acknowledge the contributions of Mike J. Triggreef and most recently Deinonych in the fish disease forum. It is my hope that traffic will continue to grow in this forum and we build a team with these outstanding members.

 

[Deinonych]

Thanks Humblefish. Glad to help others keep healthy fish!

 

[Triggreef]

Thanks Humblefish, I just try to help where I can. This forum could almost be a full time job for someone in the fish disease section.

 

[Mike J.]

Thank you, Todd! It's great to be here.

I'd also like to acknowledge the contributions of @Mike J. @Triggreef and most recently @Deinonych in the fish disease forum. It is my hope that traffic will continue to grow in this forum and we build a team with these outstanding members.

Thanks, Humblefish; living up to your name!

 

[QotD]

Well unfortunately this morning the naso isn't doing well. It's on it's side, breathing heavily and the black spots have turn white. I'm of course hoping it will come back, but I fear that it is just suffering, so I will probably take it out of the tank soon.

The spots on the sailfin have also turned white, but he is at least swimming around looking for food.

 

[Mike J.]

I'm not familiar with your tank. Do you have splashing in your sump or a power head pointed to the top of the water?

 

[QotD]

I'm not familiar with your tank. Do you have splashing in your sump or a power head pointed to the top of the water?

I am using a BioCube 29 as my quarantine tank. So not a lot of splashing in the back part, but the return pump agitates the water surface. I have a Koralia Nano pump and an airstone in the tank as well.