2 dead lionfish

[mrukus]

Ordered a dwarf zebra online. Died within 24 hours. It was from petco.com, the rest of the fish are fine. Figured something was wrong, checked parameters-only thing that was off was salinity which was up to 36. 50% water change got everything in order, picked up another one from an lfs. It died within 24 hours! See pics below. Am I missing something? They weren't eating but I had them less than 24 hours. :/ pics and parameters below, haven't flushed him yet so I can get more pics If needed.

15 gallon quarentine tank
hob aqueon with carbon
1 foam filter
15 lbs of live rock, bare bottom
ebay leds

Salinity 34
pH 8.1
ammonia 0
nitrite
Nitrate 1-2 ppm
temp 30
I've been monitoring with ammonia alert

Here are the pics. I also have a frogspawn and a zoa in quarentine. I also have one frag I have no clue what it is. Pic is there too. There was 2 clowns in there before for about 8 weeks-they are healthy as an ox.

 

[ALW]

I bought one from a lfs. Lived 3 days-ate the first da
and died the third-water parameters were perfect. No reason just happens

 

[Reefing Madness]

Ya gotta drip acclimate fish from Petco, they keep their SG at like 1.017 to keep the parasites down. SG of your, and being that it was high, would certainly shock the fish.

 

[mrukus]

I used a piece of 1/4 inch hard tubing with a valve And dripped it for about 3 hOurs. I didn't test it thought before I dumped him in. Does it take that long for them to die from a salinity shock? It was the same result from the petco fish and the Lfs fish.

 

[Reefing Madness]

LFS guys usually have their SG in the right spots, but I'd ask em. Did you see the slime coat come off a few days before they died? Once you see the slime coat shed, thats it.

 

[Humblefish]

Osmotic shock can kill a fish within 24 hrs. Only disease I know of that kills so quick is marine velvet.

If you drip acclimate a fish for 3 hrs, you need to use an ammonia reducer and also provide oxygen.

 

[mrukus]

I think I need to look up What velvet looks like. Would that have stayed in the tank for 24 hours without a fish? I tossed in enough prime for 2 gallons and put am air stone in My acclimation bucket for longer periods. Thanks for the ideas, I forgot to mention all this stuff in the original post. what would be some post mortem signs of osmotic shock vs velvet? right after the first lion died I put my zoas and a frogspawn into the dt. All those fish are fine so far.

 

[mrukus]

could velvet have been transfered on the corals.

 

[saltyphish]

It could have been introduced with the first lionfish or water from corals you bought in a lfs if you added that to the DT. Need more info though to give a diagnosis. I wouldn't commit to velvet yet.

 

[mrukus]

I try to keep as little water from whatever bag I'm transferring from out of my QT. I have been dipping in revive and I take them right out of the bag, into tank water then put them right in the QT. I'm worried that if the first dead lion brought in a disease like velvet and i stupidly took the corals out of the QT and put them right into the DT while the first lion was in there i could have introduced velvet into my DT. I figure if i did, the 4 fish in my DT should be dead very shortly and the mystery would have been solved. Its been 4 days now since I moved the corals from the QT to the DT and everyone is still alive. can i assume everything is kosher then in the DT?

 

[Humblefish]

mrukus I'm confused about something... were there ever any other fish in QT with the lionfish?

Velvet, like ich, has an encysted stage - capable of using corals/inverts/rock/substrate as "temporary housing". Velvet typically exhibits physical symptoms that resemble a really bad case of ich. However, I have seen a few cases where no physical symptoms manifested - only behavioral symptoms such as heavy breathing, swimming into the flow of a powerhead and acting reclusive (velvet makes them sensitive to light.) In these cases, velvet was only confirmed post-mortem by doing a scope check of the gills.

 

[Humblefish]

Not saying 100% it's velvet, but FYI ...

Velvet (Amyloodinium):

Symptoms - Because velvet can be such a fast killer, key behavioral symptoms will often prelude visible ones. A fish with velvet may breathe heavy, seek relief by swimming into the flow of a powerhead and act reclusive (velvet makes them sensitive to light).

If visible symptoms do manifest; velvet appears the same as ich, except the fish will usually be covered in “dust.” This dust may look gold colored if viewed at the right angle and under the right spectrum of light. Velvet is often misdiagnosed as ich and is the main “tank killer” in our hobby. It can wipe out all your fish in less than 72 hours and cannot usually be “managed” as ich sometimes is.

Treatment options - Chloroquine phosphate is the treatment of choice for velvet, but copper also works if symptoms are caught early on. Tank transfer and hypo does not work with velvet. A freshwater dip or formalin bath is recommended before treatment begins, due to the severity of this disease; however these would only provide temporary relief and will not eradicate velvet.

 

[mrukus]

sorry humble, i've been responding to this thread between a mixture of my phone and my laptop.

there were two clowns in this QT tank for about 8 weeks. This is also the observation QT, not the treatment QT so it also has a frag rack in it along with the rock and a couple snails and a hermit.

the clowns came out about 4 days before the 1st lionfish came in. this was Friday 3/27. It was dead the following saturday evening. I figured i must have screwed somthing up and got another lion from a not so local lfs (2 hours away). it too died with 24 hours.

Right around the time the first lion died i had moved the frags from teh QT to the DT. i thought he was just hiding under the rock. i figured out he was dead after i had taken the corals out.

I'm not going to get anymore fish for a bit. My concern is that i might have brought whatever the lion died from into my DT on the corals. There is nothing i can really do about it now. I won't be Qting fish and corals together anymore either.

So-if I did bring velvet into my DT-won't my fish (2 clowns, 1 hippo and a valentini) start dropping soon? If they are still alive and symptom free by the end of the week can i assume there isn't anything in the DT?

I'll probably wait on getting another dwarf lion for a while.

 

[Humblefish]

If (BIG IF) the corals were harboring the encysted stage of something like brook or velvet, then unfortunately the fish in your DT may be in a lot of trouble soon. However, it's also possible you lucked out by having the free swimmers released into the QT, and not enough time elapsed for more tomonts to have encysted upon your corals before you moved them out. Or if the corals were harboring something milder like ich tomonts, you may never see physical evidence. Although I think the hippo would eventually prove me wrong on that.

I know it all seems bad right now - but you just learned a valuable lesson. Never QT corals/inverts & fish together. They can cross contaminate one another. A coral frag carrying cysts can infect an otherwise healthy fish once the free swimmers are released from the cysts; conversely a fish with trophonts in the gills will have them drop off after 3-7 days and next encyst upon corals/inverts/rocks/substrate as tomonts.

I personally maintain a fishless frag tank for the purpose of QT'ing corals/inverts (pic below). It doesn't have to be anything fancy - I just use a HOB filter/skimmer, and a cheap T5 fixture I bought for around $100 used. I know it sounds ridiculous, but QT'ing all corals/inverts for 72 days in a fish free environment is the only way to break the life cycle of ich (other diseases have even shorter life cycles.) Because you are denying the parasites a fish host to feed upon and essentially starving them to death. I also don't trust coral dips to be 100% effective, so observing in QT allows time for any coral pests to show themselves before making their way into my DT.

I noticed you said you had to travel 2 hours to get the second Lion - the first came from Petco.com. In both cases, ammonium may have built up in the bag and then converted into harmful ammonia when doing your drip acclimation. Ammonia burn (redness around the gills) would be difficult to see on a lionfish for obvious reasons. I'm not saying you don't know how to properly acclimate, but perhaps reading this article would prove useful: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-discussion/192300-how-acclimate.html

 

[mrukus]

I'm getting rid of my FW 10 gallon. i think i'm just going to keep that as a frag QT tank for now and keep the other 15 gal as an observation tank. I am very familiar with that acclimating article-after finding out how credible the source was its the only way i acclimate now . I think i need to adjust my time, i have done as little as 30 min. and as much as 3 hours with this last lion.

thanks for the advice. i hope i have avoided a disaster-only time will tell though. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

[Robertchrisroph]

Q
Zsddsdfddffgfgvvhb ffrfr
rdfccfcvg