Large Angel deaths and issues, stumped (180 some reef)

[4FordFamily]

Ok folks, this is complex. I am a 12 year hobbyist and keep 3-6 tanks at a time. Bare with me here... it's all important for diagnosis.

History:
I have been struggling with large angels for the past few months. I had not had trouble for quite awhile before that.

I have been killing Emperor, Queen and Passer angels. They are showing zero aggression towards one another and get along great (as my past trio's have because I add them about the same time).

Parameters & Equipment:
The tank is a 180 gallon, it is "established" (but three months ago was a 125 I upgraded, and used new sand but everything was established).
I run:
ASM G4X (Rated for 450 gallons)
60 Gal Sump with large turf scrubber built in
Small (27 watt) UV sterilizer
Chaeto algae
Carbon changed out every 6 months,
Phosban reactor changed out every 2 months (I know, not enough)
I have pretty decent flow. I wouldn't consider it high but it is not low. It's probably medium/high. I have maybe 7 power heads of "medium" size (had them laying around and forget entirely what they're rated at).

Water params: (API Kits)
Temp: 77-78 degrees
Salinity: 1.025 (Refractometers, tested with two of them)
Calcium: 420
Alk: 13, or 235 PPM I believe
Phosphates: .1
Nitrates: .4 PPM
Nitrite and Ammonia (assumed zero but did not test)

It may be important to note that I am just recently winning the dinoflagelate battle and it's been traded out for GreenHairAlgae. These came about while vodka dosing 8 months ago when the setup was a 125. I still have to siphon a bit of Dino out every 2-3 weeks and do a 25 gallon water change 1-2x per month. I know the presence of Dino and GHA have been blamed for artificially low nitrate readings but as much as I change water and as much as I am removing nitrates with this system it seems plausible.

I was dosing hydrogen peroxide and magnesium to battle this. I haven't dosed hydrogen peroxide for about a month, and only dosed magnesium once in the past 30 days. Admittedly, I do not know the level of mag in the tank. Could mag be the culprit? (although I haven't added a lot in awhile and have done water changes since).

So my large angels have been lasting progressively shorter timeframes. The first group (two months ago) lasted 2-4 weeks. The second group, 2-3 weeks, my most recent attempt was less than one week for all three. I am perplexed! I keep testing and improving parameters.

I also have in the tank:
Magnificent Foxface
Large Banana Wrasse
Red Coris Wrasse
Established Cleaner Wrasse
Lime Green Wrasse
Peppermint Squirrelfish

Also have three RBTA, lots of GSP, Devils hand, Cabbage leather, and shrooms.

And up until last week, a healthy hippo tang I had grown from a quarter-sized juvenile. She died after I treated with Prazi for flukes.. thus reinforcing my belief that flukes were indeed present. When they all die and fall off they leave holes and fish can bleed out or succumb to secondary infections as a result. I was very sad.

These fish are all thriving, strangely. The magnificent foxface and red coris wrasse have been in this tank less than three months. I have seen the banana wrasse darting occasionally but it chases the lime green wrasse so I don't know if it is symptomatic or just got mad at him. When prazi is in the system, the fish do hide more. I didn't see the red coris or cleaner for the first couple days of prazi. Now they're fine. Everyone is eating nori and mixed frozen foods soaked in garlic guard and selcon daily.

Symptoms:
Shaking head
Scratching
Darting around tank (Passer did this from day 2 until day 5 when he died)
Losing color
Hiding more as time progresses
Laying in rocks for a day or two before they die
Emperor angels showing characteristic blotching color loss that gets progressively worse
Cloudy Eyes.

Do not see ich in the system (although all three of mine have it so it is present it just does not affect livestock unless something else rears its head)

The most recent deaths were with prazi in the system (at 1.5 recommended dose) so I doubt they were flukes which is why I am perplexed. The fish were still darting around tank (passer), losing color progressively worse, hiding more as time goes on, lying in rocks in the sand, and the emperor had color losses in bloches or patches. Moderately heavy breathing as well. They start swimming funny a day or two before they die (a bit twitchy and weak appearing).

Medicating History:

So 10 days ago I treated with Prazi per instructions. I removed carbon, took the lid off of the skimmer (to keep oxygen in water), and turned off the UV filter. I actually did this on all three of my tanks (another 180 without symptom just to be safe, and my 125 because I have several leopard wrasses I added in past few months). These fish are all fine. On day 5, I started skimming to remove prazi. Skimmed out LOTS, also added back carbon on all three tanks. Then, on day 7 I added prazi again (to kill any eggs or laggards) through day 10 (today) when I am starting to remove it. The parameters I posted were all done this morning.

Additional:
I completely blamed flukes until dosing prazipro. I do feel that flukes took out my Hippo. She was tough as nails and survived everything. It's also commonly added by angelfish, especially large angels and I had added several in that time frame. I also got half of them from petco (big mistake) and the other half from live aquaria. My last Queen and Passer that passed today were from Divers Den...It also makes sense how the hippo died a couple days after initial prazi dose. Now, I am not sure what's causing this.

Any ideas? Anyone had similar experience? I feel like the angelfish murderer. I keep so many expert only fish (Achilles tang, radiant wrasse, blue star leopard wrasses, potters wrasse, ornate leopard, black leopard, regular leopard) and difficult fish (red coris wrasse and powder blue tang). Admittedly, all but the red coris wrasse are in different systems. I pride myself in being the "wrasse whisperer" with such good luck with them and other tough fish. What the heck is going on?

Again, all of the tanks had the same prazi dosing and treatment. No one else was harmed by them. It did curb appetites a couple days, but all is completely normal again.

I am not adding angels again to this tank until I figure this out. I thought I had discovered the issue (flukes or other similar parasite that prazi could kill) but apparently not. Heck, these new angels died even faster!

I do have the Queen and Emperor frozen in the freezer. The queen died over night, I euthanized the passer this morning to put him out of his misery (but I am assuming parasites would still be on him). I guess I could put them in fresh water and see what falls off? Any suggestions?

Sorry for the essay folks. Very upset.

 

[Humblefish]

The head shaking/scratching/losing color/blotchiness/cloudy eyes are all symptoms of flukes. Wrasses and angels are especially susceptible. It is rare, but some monogenea are resistant to praziquantel. For these, you have to use fenbendazole or even dylox. De-Los (sold by nationalfishpharm.com) is another alternative treatment. Formalin usually works too.

The problem is none of these are reef safe or as gentle on the fish as praziquantel. Did you perform a FW dip on any of the deceased to look for flukes?

 

[4FordFamily]

The head shaking/scratching/losing color/blotchiness/cloudy eyes are all symptoms of flukes. Wrasses and angels are especially susceptible. It is rare, but some monogenea are resistant to praziquantel. For these, you have to use fenbendazole or even dylox. De-Los (sold by nationalfishpharm.com) is another alternative treatment. Formalin usually works too.

The problem is none of these are reef safe or as gentle on the fish as praziquantel. Did you perform a FW dip on any of the deceased to look for flukes?

No, I have frozen the last two losses. Would this still work if I take them from the freezer?

Thanks for your reply. Do you think that those meds would be ok with the limited coral I do have? (3 rbta, Devils hand, cabbage leather, green star polyps and a couple
Mushrooms)

 

[Humblefish]

No, I have frozen the last two losses. Would this still work if I take them from the freezer?

You can try, but I don't think it will work. When SW worms are exposed to FW they go into osmotic shock, spasm and dislodge from the fish. Dead flukes may fall out of the fish, but I'm not certain they will still turn white after being frozen.

Thanks for your reply. Do you think that those meds would be ok with the limited coral I do have? (3 rbta, Devils hand, cabbage leather, green star polyps and a couple Mushrooms)

Unfortunately, none are reef safe. You have to treat with them in a QT. Newsmyrna80 over on Reef Central knows more about flukes than I do. I know she has also battled prazi resistant strains. You might wanna shoot her a PM and see what she thinks.

 

[4FordFamily]

I would do that but the mods banned me because im not submitting to a way of thinking because they accept it. Do not disagree with them. I don't really care but that forum is full of narcissistic, prude, and arrogant mods

 

[Humblefish]

I would do that but the mods banned me because im not submitting to a way of thinking because they accept it. Do not disagree with them. I don't really care but that forum is full of narcissistic, prude, and arrogant mods

Why do you think I spend most of my time over here? :wink:

 

[4FordFamily]

Yeah I suspect there is a LOT of that. It seems like that forum is a popularity contest for who can be most agreeable with one another rather than think objectively.

I pointed out that correlation does not equal causation and that scientific research is often flawed or skewed and independent variables are often overlooked that can cause the results tested, and most "experiments" are often quasi experiments or pre experiments. Mlst do not know the different and research often calls them all experiments but it is important not to draw inferences from quasi or pre experiments. Their purpose should be solely to establish hypothesis, not "prove" anything. And we are back to causation and correlation even if it was an experiment. I also pointed out that the studies should be both reliable and valid and often they're just reliable (like always shooting a target to the right because of the gun or sight (not correct but still reliable)

After having a member ridicule me for that they banned me. LOL!

 

[Humblefish]

I used to spend a lot of time on their fish disease forum. However, I got tired of seeing the same old information being regurgitated, and one method for ich (tank transfer method) being crammed down everyone's throat. Don't get me wrong ... it was all good information ... but they failed to realize that not one size fits all. I also didn't like how people were ridiculed for not taking the advice, experimenting with new treatment methods, practicing ich management, etc. At the end of the day I believe it's your fish to do as you wish. I've also come to realize that most people only learn by doing. Lecturing them on the importance of QT (for example) is futile. You have to let them try to do things their own way, make their own own mistakes... even if that means fish have to die in the process. Eventually some come to realize that others have figured out that there is a better way.

 

[4FordFamily]

I don't QT but in one of my tanks I may start. Only for fragile tangs and angels would it probably be beneficial. I have kept many fragile fish without QT successfully.

This Angel mess though... *** haha

 

[4FordFamily]

My foxface now has cloudy eyes after 2X Prazi treatment (2x potency).

May need to try new medication or dose 4x (some have done 4-5x dosage without issue).

I wonder if it could also be bacterial or something since it occurred only after the prazi treatment. He's not itching or showing any other symptoms. (Magnificent Foxface)

I think I could also remove most corals temporarily for the treatment duration if I had to treat with the other chemical you mentioned (where would I get it?) for prazi-resistent strains

 

[Humblefish]

I'm assuming cloudier than normal for a foxface? Could be a bacterial infection setting in. This is the problem with ich/flukes; it's often the "secondary" bacterial infection which complicates the situation, and kills due to the fish's already compromised immune system.

You best in-tank treatment option would be formalin. All of the meds listed below contain formalin, and are available at either a LFS or one of the popular online places like F&S (or even Amazon):

* Formalin-MS
* Quick Cure
* Aquarium Solutions Ich-X
* Kordon Rid-Ich Plus

Formalin-MS is considered the "gold standard" and what I would use. You should be able to pull out any residuals by running carbon and/or a poly filter, but the thing I cannot be certain about is if rock/substrate absorb formalin like they do copper. If absorption occurs, it could leach formalin back out into the water column almost indefinitely. However, I know crazy people who have used formalin in their reef tank and sometimes with no ill effects. So, formalin is the "safest" option I can think to recommend to you.

 

[4FordFamily]

I may have found a contributing factor - for about the past three weeks three of my 6 wave makers were offline or intermittent - I had one that would go on and off I figured that it was just going out and forgot to remove it.

I read on several other threads that angels need lots of flow (especially because of oxygen) to thrive. I have a huge skimmer rates for 450 gallons I thought would be mixing in lots of o2, but I guess I do have rather slow water movement from the sump to the dt and with the three Angels in there it was pretty well stocked. I read that one of the power heads should be aimed up at the surface to the point that it's very turbulent. I did this tonight and that's how I discovered that the three did not work. I fixed this.

I know that it's well documented that prazi decreases the amount of oxygen in the water. I tried to mitigate this by removing the skimmer cup and leaving the skimmer on during treatment but I wonder how helpful that was in a sump with slow flow to the DT in a highly stocked aquarium with low flow and prazi.

have formalin, but worry about my rbta leathers and gsp?

Would pimafix or melafix work? I think they're more reef safe?

Do you think there may not have been enough oxygen for a fish that has very high oxygen needs? That would explain why my wrasses and squirrelfish seem unaffected, but the angels struggled?

 

[Humblefish]

Prazi does rob the water of oxygen, so the wave makers being offline could have been a contributing factor in their death. FWIW; newly acquired fish (especially those collected in crest zones) are far more intolerant of low oxygen levels than established fish. Even an Achilles Tang will eventually adapt to decreased gas exchange. The problem for most fish is if parasites or worms gets inside the gills, fluid then builds up and that can basically suffocate them to death.

I honestly would not risk using formalin in your DT. I was just providing you with the "least offensive" option to Prazipro. Pimafix/melafix are herbal remedies designed to boost a fish's natural immune system, to fight off bacterial infections. I tried using that stuff (admittedly 15-20 years ago) on a number of occasions, but never had any success with it. However, I have friends who swear by it and also Herbtana for managing ich. Herbtana has peaked my interest, and I plan to start clinical trials using it after my CP experiment has concluded.

 

[4FordFamily]

Prazi does rob the water of oxygen, so the wave makers being offline could have been a contributing factor in their death. FWIW; newly acquired fish (especially those collected in crest zones) are far more intolerant of low oxygen levels than established fish. Even an Achilles Tang will eventually adapt to decreased gas exchange. The problem for most fish is if parasites or worms gets inside the gills, fluid then builds up and that can basically suffocate them to death.

I honestly would not risk using formalin in your DT. I was just providing you with the "least offensive" option to Prazipro. Pimafix/melafix are herbal remedies designed to boost a fish's natural immune system, to fight off bacterial infections. I tried using that stuff (admittedly 15-20 years ago) on a number of occasions, but never had any success with it. However, I have friends who swear by it and also Herbtana for managing ich. Herbtana has peaked my interest, and I plan to start clinical trials using it after my CP experiment has concluded.

Interesting. I have a 55 gal I can use as a QT for the fish in that tank and treat them for whatever but my biggest concern is running fallow for 72 days - that's a LONG time... lots of water changes, lots of time I don't have with work, full time grad school by night, and full time stay at home dad by weekend and until mid afternoon.

I kept reading so many threads about high oxygen needs in fish angels, especially emperors. My emperors really struggle and it just does not make sense...

 

[Humblefish]

There will be some bacteria die-off going 72 days fallow, but you'd be amazed how quickly it bounces back. I advocate spreading out reintroducing the fish over a 2-3 week period just to be on the safe side. While going fallow, continue to feed your corals/inverts and toss in a pinch of flake every 2-3 days for good measure.

Adult large angels do need good gas exchange, but IMO & E they are not as oxygen demanding as most tangs. Especially Acanthurus.

 

[sc50964]

I may have found a contributing factor - for about the past three weeks three of my 6 wave makers were offline or intermittent - I had one that would go on and off I figured that it was just going out and forgot to remove it.

I read on several other threads that angels need lots of flow (especially because of oxygen) to thrive. I have a huge skimmer rates for 450 gallons I thought would be mixing in lots of o2, but I guess I do have rather slow water movement from the sump to the dt and with the three Angels in there it was pretty well stocked. I read that one of the power heads should be aimed up at the surface to the point that it's very turbulent. I did this tonight and that's how I discovered that the three did not work. I fixed this.

I know that it's well documented that prazi decreases the amount of oxygen in the water. I tried to mitigate this by removing the skimmer cup and leaving the skimmer on during treatment but I wonder how helpful that was in a sump with slow flow to the DT in a highly stocked aquarium with low flow and prazi.

have formalin, but worry about my rbta leathers and gsp?

Would pimafix or melafix work? I think they're more reef safe?

Do you think there may not have been enough oxygen for a fish that has very high oxygen needs? That would explain why my wrasses and squirrelfish seem unaffected, but the angels struggled?

Long time no talk. I guess we both have found a new place outside of RC. I don't think pimafix and melafix are any good based on my experience with them. I have used prazipro once and it killed my angel. I didn't use an additional air source at the time but I do that now with all my medicated fish regardless of what med I use. I found seachem meds to be quite effective, as long as you know what the problem is. Metronidazole for mild ich, cupramine for severe ich and velvet, paraguard as a board spectrum med when I'm uncertain what the problem is, and kanaplex for fungus and finrot.

 

[GreatWhiteTang]

Look into chloroquine phosphate.. Been using this for almost a decade.. Awesome!!!

 

[4FordFamily]

Long time no talk. I guess we both have found a new place outside of RC. I don't think pimafix and melafix are any good based on my experience with them. I have used prazipro once and it killed my angel. I didn't use an additional air source at the time but I do that now with all my medicated fish regardless of what med I use. I found seachem meds to be quite effective, as long as you know what the problem is. Metronidazole for mild ich, cupramine for severe ich and velvet, paraguard as a board spectrum med when I'm uncertain what the problem is, and kanaplex for fungus and finrot.

Yeah rc sucks lol. I'll look in to those meds thanks much! What chased you off!?

 

[4FordFamily]

Look into chloroquine phosphate.. Been using this for almost a decade.. Awesome!!!

I've read about this but where do I get my hands on it?

 

[Humblefish]

I've read about this but where do I get my hands on it?

Here is everything I know about CP: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-diagnosis/192309-chloroquine-phosphate.html

In the thread, there are links to a couple of articles which has helped some people convince their vet to write a prescription for CP; which can then be filled at a local pharmacy.