ick, going fallow and things I was told. want opinions....

[JVH]

Some of you are aware of my ick issue. I treated with kick ick initially because I felt helpless and didn't do my homework and thought I needed to do something asap.. After my 1st treatment I did much research and discovered only proven 3 treatments. I opted for the opper nd QT.
Kick ick doesn't work on ALL the stages. I will keep some details short for fear of this being to long and people not wanting to read..

I was talking to a very reliable FS owner who has several beautiful 200g reef tanks. He said at any given time all fish will have ick. If you were to scrap the fins and look under a scope you will see it. He said all fish and tanks have it and if you have a healthy fish and parameters your fish can get rid of it and eventually be immune to it. (good food, water and garlic to help build immunity)
He told me that If you have an obviously sick looking fish(not just spots) labored breathing, not eating, etc you can let it ride it.
OR remove and treat in QT tank but all other fish will most likely have it and as long as everyone is acting normal leave the tank alone.
And leave the fish alone because moving one will not keep others from getting it.

Most important part:

He told me you NEVER rip apart the reef echo system you created t remove a fish. Ick may come & go. You may see it or you may not and it still may be there.. Keep everything healthy an clean and again DO NOT TAKE APART YOUR REEF!

So I took apart my reef almost 2 weeks ago to remove all fish & treat in QT with copper. lost 2 fish anyway and the 4 remaining are doing great!
Now I wonder if I should have just removed 2 sick fish as they would have been easy catch and maybe I should have left everything alone..

Oh and the 72 days of going fallow is not really effective since fish may still have it but you wont see it..AND you would need to QT EVEYTHING you ever put in your tank for 72 days if that worked..

PLEASE, as there are many schools of thought, I would like to hear what everyone thinks because if this is all true and I could possibly see spots again I want handle it differently..maybe.

 

[Humblefish]

I pretty much disagree with everything this LFS owner told you. None of it is scientifically based or accurate. If you'd like to take the time to read it, below are two articles I've written on the subject.

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-diagnosis/188770-understanding-ich.html

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fi...188775-ich-eradication-vs-ich-management.html

 

[JVH]

I pretty much disagree with everything this LFS owner told you. None of it is scientifically based or accurate. If you'd like to take the time to read it, below are two articles I've written on the subject.

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-diagnosis/188770-understanding-ich.html

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fi...188775-ich-eradication-vs-ich-management.html

I will definitely take he time because I am trying to figure out how to handle things..When I look at his tanks it makes it very easy to take his advice yet I hear and read other that are not the same and definitely not the same outcome. I'm tying to figure out the actual facts and what has worked. Im at a crossroads now with my tank and how I want to proceed.. Thanks for the links.. I will prink and read.

 

[JVH]

Well, that was a very educational read!
Thank you. I have no Idea how I would handle things If at the end of all this I start over and wind up getting It again...BUT,at this point I have my 4 remaining guys in QT with copper for 2 weeks so what's another 2 months at this point?!

I will do that and while I'm waiting I will set up my new upgrade and when rock has been fallow for 72 days I will add that to my new set up and once tank is up and running and hopefully cycled very soon I will add the QT guys in and hope for the best...I should be good according to what I read.. Then new additions would need 72 days in QT just to be sure? is that correct?

 

[KoleTang]

+1 to what Humblefish said. Ich is not always in the tank, ich is not always infecting the fish. That is something that people say as an excuse to opt out of quarantine. You will hear this nonsense a lot from LFS because it's easier to sell your customers possibly infected fish when they believe that all fish have ich.

They will make the argument that fish fight off ich naturally in the wild. This is true, but misleading. The amount of ich theronts per volume released in a closed system is overwhelming compared to what the fish would be exposed to in the wild.

 

[Robink]

No disrespect, but I do believe in the theory that ick is always present just dormant. A few years ago I had an ick breakout in my tank. I had had the fish in the tank for years, some of them more than 4 or 5 years. My teenage son scared my blue tang accidentally. I of course yelled at my son who then, being a typical teenager, scared him again. The next day the tang was covered with ick. COVERED!!! I could not get him out of the tank. I treated the tank with reefsafe ick treatment. Didn't work. I lost all my fish except for one green chromis. I didn't add any fish for over a year. Have about 7 fish now, no problems...yet .:bigsmile: just my opinion.

 

[JVH]

No disrespect, but I do believe in the theory that ick is always present just dormant. A few years ago I had an ick breakout in my tank. I had had the fish in the tank for years, some of them more than 4 or 5 years. My teenage son scared my blue tang accidentally. I of course yelled at my son who then, being a typical teenager, scared him again. The next day the tang was covered with ick. COVERED!!! I could not get him out of the tank. I treated the tank with reefsafe ick treatment. Didn't work. I lost all my fish except for one green chromis. I didn't add any fish for over a year. Have about 7 fish now, no problems...yet .:bigsmile: just my opinion.

Thank you for your story/opnion. I have head this before and I am trying to see who else may have experienced this as well..

 

[Bassett22]

No disrespect, but I do believe in the theory that ick is always present just dormant. A few years ago I had an ick breakout in my tank. I had had the fish in the tank for years, some of them more than 4 or 5 years. My teenage son scared my blue tang accidentally. I of course yelled at my son who then, being a typical teenager, scared him again. The next day the tang was covered with ick. COVERED!!! I could not get him out of the tank. I treated the tank with reefsafe ick treatment. Didn't work. I lost all my fish except for one green chromis. I didn't add any fish for over a year. Have about 7 fish now, no problems...yet .:bigsmile: just my opinion.

If you have not taken the proper steps to assure ich is not in the tank, then yes, its possible that its always there, that some fish has it and can fight it off. If you have a fallow tank, and it sits fallow through the life cycle of ich, then you introduce fish that you have removed the parasites from, then you should never have an out break again. Of course there is always the chance of introducing it everytime you add a coral.

 

[KoleTang]

jedimasterben

No disrespect, but I do believe in the theory that ick is always present just dormant. A few years ago I had an ick breakout in my tank. I had had the fish in the tank for years, some of them more than 4 or 5 years. My teenage son scared my blue tang accidentally. I of course yelled at my son who then, being a typical teenager, scared him again. The next day the tang was covered with ick. COVERED!!! I could not get him out of the tank. I treated the tank with reefsafe ick treatment. Didn't work. I lost all my fish except for one green chromis. I didn't add any fish for over a year. Have about 7 fish now, no problems...yet .:bigsmile: just my opinion.

Any hard surface can have ich tomonts encysted on it. This includes snails, equipment, coral skeleton, frag plugs, etc. If any water was added (even with wet hands from another tank), ich theronts could have come in as well.

Ich has a distinct, indisputable life cycle. This isn't about opinions. It simply cannot live dormant for years on end. It had to be added to your tank at some point before the tang became stressed, or it was infecting your fish unnoticed.

 

[JVH]

A side question regarding this. My DT is the fallow tank with 3 shrimp and about 15+ assorted snails and hermits and an emerald crab. Do I need to WC as often? I was doing a WC every 7 to 8 days 6 gal WC on my 29g. I think I can go 2 weeks with no fish. Make sense? And filter clean out once a month? Still doing he QT tank weekly. Also 6g in the 20 QT Am I good? Or can I streach the DT?

 

[KoleTang]

A side question regarding this. My DT is the fallow tank with 3 shrimp and about 15+ assorted snails and hermits and an emerald crab. Do I need to WC as often? I was doing a WC every 7 to 8 days 6 gal WC on my 29g. I think I can go 2 weeks with no fish. Make sense? And filter clean out once a month? Still doing he QT tank weekly. Also 6g in the 20 QT Am I good? Or can I streach the DT?

Yes. You aren't feeding as much (if at all) with just the invertebrates. Since less nutrients are being added, less nutrient control is needed. The only other thing to consider is if you are relying on water changes to raise Alk, Ca, and Mg for any corals you may have.

 

[Humblefish]

JVH One amendment I'd like to make: As you probably gathered from my "Ich eradication vs. Ich management" article, I do acknowledge that ich can sometimes be managed under the right conditions. I did it myself, with varying degrees of success, for almost 30 years. However, two things I have noticed now that I only practice ich eradication: 1) My fish are more vibrantly colored and just look healthier. I guess not having to battle parasites in a closed system on a continual basis is actually good for their health. 2) I almost never lose fish anymore. They live for years & years. Back when I practiced ich management, it seemed every few months I would lose a fish under "mysterious circumstances".

Another thing your LFS owner is not considering: Ich is just one of many diseases you can inadvertently introduce into your DT by forgoing QT. Diseases such as velvet & brook are NOT manageable, as ich sometimes is, and those are capable of wiping out your entire fish population in under 72 hrs.

Maybe you'd like to read this article next: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-diagnosis/189815-how-quarantine.html

 

[JVH]

JVH One amendment I'd like to make: As you probably gathered from my "Ich eradication vs. Ich management" article, I do acknowledge that ich can sometimes be managed under the right conditions. I did it myself, with varying degrees of success, for almost 30 years. However, two things I have noticed now that I only practice ich eradication: 1) My fish are more vibrantly colored and just look healthier. I guess not having to battle parasites in a closed system on a continual basis is actually good for their health. 2) I almost never lose fish anymore. They live for years & years. Back when I practiced ich management, it seemed every few months I would lose a fish under "mysterious circumstances".
Another thing your LFS owner is not considering: Ich is just one of many diseases you can inadvertently introduce into your DT by forgoing QT. Diseases such as velvet & brook are NOT manageable, as ich sometimes is, and those are capable of wiping out your entire fish population in under 72 hrs.

Maybe you'd like to read this article next: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-diagnosis/189815-how-quarantine.html

Thank you! Yes, I will read that artical. I read a lot on this subject. I'm trying to learn as much as I can..I'm hoping I can "manage ick" because from all that I read it seems hard to avoid. Eradication would be better for sure but knowing I can manage it and possibly not have to loose fish over it if/when it happens is the most important thing! Fat healthy garlic fed fish in perfect water conditions can hopefully result in fish with a strong immunity!
So I need to QT everything for 72 days Right? That would seen to be the only way to know I'm not introducing it in the tank again... I will read the artical about that...I don't know if I can QT everything 72 hrs all the time..
Thanks for all the links and insite

 

[Humblefish]

So I need to QT everything for 72 days Right? That would seen to be the only way to know I'm not introducing it in the tank again... I will read the artical about that...I don't know if I can QT everything 72 hrs all the time..
Thanks for all the links and insite

About the 72 day thing... that comes from one strain of ich which was discovered in a single study. To my knowledge, it has never been encountered again. The vast majority of the time, ich completes its life cycle in 2-4 weeks. So, that lines up with conventional QT protocols.

For corals/inverts, it would be best to place them in a fishless frag tank for 72 days. This is probably overkill (I personally only QT my corals/inverts for 4-6 weeks), but 72 days takes into account the Colorni and Burgess (1997) study, where it took theronts between 3-72 days to emerge from a group of tomonts. Tomonts are what can encyst upon corals/inverts and have the longest stage of ich's life cycle.

A fish infected with ich is only carrying the trophont stage, which typically spends 3-7 days feeding on a fish before dropping off. Knowing this, you can use TTM to treat a fish with ich or for prophylactic QT. TTM only takes 13 days to complete and more info can be found here: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-diagnosis/192655-tank-transfer-method.html

 

[Paul B]

I really don't want to get involved in an ich thread because of the arguments, but (and I know I am going to regret this) I agree with your LFS for the most part. When you take advice from someone, look at their tanks and their successes. If his tank looks healthy and the fish are years old, he probably knows what he is talking about and doesn't go by rumors. Yes, of course ich can kill all your fish in a couple of days. Everyone knows that. But many very old tanks (such as mine and maybe your LFS) don't have any problems with ich and never will. Not in a few years, or ten years, I mean never. We also all know the life cycle and that copper kills ich. If you just throw fish in a tank and feed flakes, pellets and go about your business, the fish will probably die of ich. That's not how to do it. But so many people don't listen, or don't want to learn the entire story before saying that you must quarantine or else. There is much more to it than that and I have been keeping fish for 60+ years so I learned a little about them. Fish evolved with ich and are perfectly able to eliminate it from their bodies and stay even healthier than if they never met ich. My 24 year old fish have never had ich and will never get it. I add mud, snails, amphipods, crabs and small fish from the ocean and buy from all different LFSs all the time. My reef is 44 years old and there has not been ich in there for probably 35 years. That's when I learned the secret. But I have written about it many, many times and am tired of people calling me lucky (or just nuts) So learn all you can, but try to learn from people who have healthy, spawning fish for 10, 15, or 20 years with no problems. There are many ways to do this and many arguments about it. Sorry to screw up your thread. Have fun and good luck with your fish.

 

[Humblefish]

Sorry to screw up your thread. Have fun and good luck with your fish.

Don't be sorry. All opinions are welcome here, without fear of ridicule. When I agreed to moderate this forum, my intentions were that information could be presented so that the end user could ultimately decide for themselves how best to proceed. I strongly believe that what works for one does not work for all ... one size does not fit all. Some will find success employing your methods, while others will do better following my strict QT protocols. Or perhaps they'll chose to do something entirely different from what either of us is advocating. At the end of the day, it is their fish and ... "You pays your money and you takes your chances."

 

[4FordFamily]

I agree with paul with regards to ich except for some of the most fragile species- but velvet has turned one of my 180 upside down... Velvet is far more serious than ich. Just my .02. Ich is a joke unless you have fragile fish, poor husbandry skills or bad water quality, tiny tank full of large fish, etc.

Velvet... Different story.

 

[Humblefish]

I agree with paul with regards to ich except for some of the most fragile species- but velvet has turned one of my 180 upside down... Velvet is far more serious than ich. Just my .02. Ich is a joke unless you have fragile fish, poor husbandry skills or bad water quality, tiny tank full of large fish, etc.

Velvet... Different story.

And that's the kicker. Put a fish with ich in your tank - and sometimes you can manage that. However, I still feel new hobbyists are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to ich management since it is more of a "learn as you go" process.

However, roll the dice and get a fish with velvet ... that almost always ends badly for your entire fish population. So, I would say it still makes sense to at least passively observe in QT for 2-3 weeks. If for no other reason than to ensure velvet does not rear it's ugly head.

 

[KoleTang]

I really don't want to get involved in an ich thread because of the arguments, but (and I know I am going to regret this) I agree with your LFS for the most part. When you take advice from someone, look at their tanks and their successes. If his tank looks healthy and the fish are years old, he probably knows what he is talking about and doesn't go by rumors. Yes, of course ich can kill all your fish in a couple of days. Everyone knows that. But many very old tanks (such as mine and maybe your LFS) don't have any problems with ich and never will. Not in a few years, or ten years, I mean never. We also all know the life cycle and that copper kills ich. If you just throw fish in a tank and feed flakes, pellets and go about your business, the fish will probably die of ich. That's not how to do it. But so many people don't listen, or don't want to learn the entire story before saying that you must quarantine or else. There is much more to it than that and I have been keeping fish for 60+ years so I learned a little about them. Fish evolved with ich and are perfectly able to eliminate it from their bodies and stay even healthier than if they never met ich. My 24 year old fish have never had ich and will never get it. I add mud, snails, amphipods, crabs and small fish from the ocean and buy from all different LFSs all the time. My reef is 44 years old and there has not been ich in there for probably 35 years. That's when I learned the secret. But I have written about it many, many times and am tired of people calling me lucky (or just nuts) So learn all you can, but try to learn from people who have healthy, spawning fish for 10, 15, or 20 years with no problems. There are many ways to do this and many arguments about it. Sorry to screw up your thread. Have fun and good luck with your fish.

You are right, a close to natural environment will make the fish more comfortable. If they are comfortable and healthy, there is less chance of a parasite breaking through the fish's defenses. Your tank does a much better job of replicating a natural environment in a closed system compared many other tanks. I doubt that dropping an ich infested fish in any reef tank will cause it to kick the infection, but perhaps in your system it would.

@JVH has fish that are already infected and already stressed. Treatment is necessary in this situation IMO.

Personally, I won't risk any fish bringing anything in (As 3fordfamily mentioned, there are worse things to be concerned about than ich). I quarantine for 9 weeks and treat with PraziPro. Yes, they are in a PVC jungle during this time, but they eat well and I have yet to have an outbreak of anything in this environment. This period also helps me isolate and condition any feeding issues the fish has before it gets lost in the display.

This is my method and I stick to it. It takes some work, but I trust it. I feel that many make the decision to "heal their fish with their natural reef" because it is easier to do this than to treat it via quarantine. Some people need more critical thinking, and less Oprah.

 

[Paul B]

Or perhaps they'll chose to do something entirely different from what either of us is advocating. At the end of the day, it is their fish and ... "You pays your money and you takes your chances."

That is true, but I am not advocating anything. Quarantining is essential, sometimes, for some people with some fish. But it is a bad idea for some people with some fish. Many fish die in quarantine and many fish die in a tank because it was not quarantined. It is not as simple as throwing a fish in a tank. If my fish were not spawning all the time, I would have to quarantine. If I were to feed dry food, I would have to quarantine. If my tank was new, I would have to quarantine. But I add mud from the sea for the bacteria. If I were to quarantine that, that would defeat the purpose of adding bacteria. I also add amphipods and copepods which I could not quarantine. But in my natural tank the benefits far outweigh any danger of disease. The benefits of quarantining are obvious. If no diseases are in your tank, the fish should not get them. But there is a little problem. If diseases are never in your tank, the fish are also not immune from anything and their immune system will not recognize anything so if something does enter the tank. the fish are all but doomed. Many people want to take that chance and do a good job of quarantining and that is fine. I can take any fish, no matter how ich infested it is and put it in my tank with no worries that any of my fish will get it. Just a couple of weeks ago I added a shrimp fish. A few days later it was covered in parasites and died. No problem. Last year I got a copperband butterfly for $5.00 because it was covered in parasites and the rest of them in the store died. I cured it in a couple of days and put it in my reef. No problem. He was fine and because my older copperband didn't get along with him, I gave him away. I get many fish very cheap because they are sick and the LFS knows they will die. I cure them in a couple of days and keep them forever. Virtually all my fish that don't jump out die of old age or close to it. Many people say my tank is a time bomb and will crash. It may, but it has had one heck of a run. For me and my tank ich is a no brainer. It doesn't exist and means nothing and that goes for ich, velvet and anything else. If you keep your fish in spawning condition and have them exposed to diseases, it should not concern them. But like Humblefish said what works in my tank may not work in your tank.
Here is an article I wrote about fish immunity. I also wrote a book and this is in it in more detail.
Fish Health Through Slime