Bayer insecticide as a coral dip

[watchguy123]

These are the steps I take before adding a frag. I picked this up from another forum from two reefers in particular, Whisperer and Flamron.

The first step is to start with a close visual inspection of your frag.

Here is the frag in the bag:

Darth Maul Porites

Wild Colony

Frag on original plug (possibly crawling with all kinds of pests (AEFW, red bugs, black bugs, nudi's of all kinds, etc)

Got to get the frag off the plug (I always do this or if I cannot remove the frag from plug I then cover the plug with zap gel)

Yes, some of the frag remains on old plug but less likely to bring in eggs by removing old plug

Frag sitting in 4ounces of either frag water or your tank water (with plug removed!!)

I then get out my "Bayer Advanced complete insect killer for Soil and Turf Concentrate" and a 10 ml syringe (This stuff is extremely hazardous, do not touch it with your skin, use in a well ventilated room and do not spill it.)

Then add 10 ml's of Bayer to the 4 ounces of water in the cup (make sure you use the exact same bottle as I have photographed, there are different versions of Bayer with different ingredients in similar looking containers). Regarding dosage, I use 10 mls of Bayer, but some people use as little as 1.25 mls of this Bayer to 4 ounces of frag or tank water.

This is what the cup looks like with the Bayer

 

[watchguy123]

I wait at least 5 minutes ( apparently it can be longer than 5 minutes, however 5 minutes seems to be effective and longer may be more stressful)

While the frag soaks for 5 (five) minutes, get out a new plug and glue

After 5 minutes, I take the frag out of the cup of water that has the 10 ml of Bayer and place it in a a cup of plain "tank" water. The "tank" water cup serves to rinse the frag clean of Bayer before it goes in the display or quarantine tank. do not use original frag bag water for rinse, it may have free floating pest in it. Remember,do not touch the frag with Bayer on it, do not put your hands into cup with Bayer, use tweezers or cotton pliers. Bayer is hazardous to your health, don't smell it, don't spill it and don't drink it--it is hazardous.

Frag is now glued on to new plug

Glued on new plug and sitting in cup of tank water so glue will set and then into tank.

 

[watchguy123]

I have utilized this technique on more than 100 frags and I believe it to be successful against most of the pests we fear: red bugs, black bugs, AEFW, monti eating nudibranches and more. There is no scientific evidence of the effectiveness or safety of this dip, however there appear to be incredible numbers of reefers who have used this successfully. So the bottomline : the proof is empirical. I have used this on red dragon, Mr. Pacman, echinata, chalices, favias, basically anything with a skeletal body. So no, I do not dip anemones. I do not use revive or Coral rx or iodine after this although there are individuals that do, it is your call to make. I also wish to point out that this is most definitely not original to me, I utilized the efforts and handwork of other reefers to summarize.

Also, anytime I said "water", that is never tap water, it can always be tank water.

 

[watchguy123]

And to answer some questions before they are asked.
1. Yes, this is a lot of bayer in 4 ounces of water.
2. No, I do not believe I have lost a frag due to this dipping technique.
3. Yes, I have had new frags croak but I think it is more likely due to differences in tank parameters in my tank vs frag's home tank.
And certainly fragging and/or shipping is a huge stressor. But everything and anything is possible.
4. I would rather lose a new frag regardless of how expensive it may have been, than introduce a pest that may devastate my tank.
I understand that opinions may differ.

 

[rajkovich207]

Great thread, just did a very similar thing about three hours ago on a few rice zoanthids and sympodium. All doing well. I did not know that it was that hazardous, I spilt a few drops on the floor but cleaned it with dish soap. Quick question though. I have a random assortment of containers to do everything from mixing up some buff to spot feeding and even my dips, I'm sure many will have something to say, butoh well. All though I am a bit Leary with this dip. I do rinse my containers well after use. Could that not he enough with this dip?

 

[landlord]

And to answer some questions.....QUOTE]

Got a few more questions for you, if you do not mind:

1. Have you ever visibly seen any pests / good pests, etc come free from the dipped coral into your solution. Just curious what you have seen that was killed / Stunned by this procedure?

2. After your five minute waiting period during the rinse in fresh tank water are you shaking off the coral are using a baster to rinse the coral clean from dead or dying creatures?

3. You did mention that some corals were lost during this procedure to which you believe it was more to do with the piece itself vs the dip. Would you mind sharing the names (if remembered) of those lost pieces. Just to be on the safe side

Nice writeup and thanks.

Kurt

 

[Battlecorals]

Great write up. This method has needed a short and concise set of instructions for a long time. Hopefully this will clarify looming questions about what, how much and how long. At least provide a starting point.

nice work.

Love the dad clock

 

[watchguy123]

Great thread, just did a very similar thing about three hours ago on a few rice zoanthids and sympodium. All doing well. I did not know that it was that hazardous, I spilt a few drops on the floor but cleaned it with dish soap. Quick question though. I have a random assortment of containers to do everything from mixing up some buff to spot feeding and even my dips, I'm sure many will have something to say, butoh well. All though I am a bit Leary with this dip. I do rinse my containers well after use. Could that not he enough with this dip?

My approach is pretty simple, creepy crawly critters and humans are close enough on the evolution scale that if it is lethal to them, then it is most likely harmful to us.

And to answer some questions.....QUOTE]

Got a few more questions for you, if you do not mind:

1. Have you ever visibly seen any pests / good pests, etc come free from the dipped coral into your solution. Just curious what you have seen that was killed / Stunned by this procedure?

2. After your five minute waiting period during the rinse in fresh tank water are you shaking off the coral are using a baster to rinse the coral clean from dead or dying creatures?

3. You did mention that some corals were lost during this procedure to which you believe it was more to do with the piece itself vs the dip. Would you mind sharing the names (if remembered) of those lost pieces. Just to be on the safe side

Nice writeup and thanks.

Kurt

1. There are all kinds of creepy tiny things on the bottom of the cup when I dump it out, not sure if it is debris or dead bugs.
2. I just swirl it once or twice in the fresh tank water cup but basting it makes sense.
3. Nothing stands out except wild frags. I do not think I lost a smooth skin acro of any sort. My experience has been STN (slow tissue necrosis). I think the main reason for loss has been differing parameters between my tank and frag's home tank. It would probably be helpful if others shared their experience or knowledge base.
4. You did not ask, but no one is aware of anything that kills pest eggs, that is why I always remove plugs. It is a great storage place for those eggs.

 

[niftyjosh]

I too use Bayer exclusively an have done several tests with it on newly clipped frags from my tank and frags from people with known AEFW, red bugs, and black bugs.

Frags from my tank were used to see how long and how high of a dosage I could use. These frags included acros (smooth skin and everything else in between), monties, Lps, and softies.

I also used a 1/2 full plastic cup for the tests but have gone up to 25ml bayer for around 20 minutes with little evidence of stress.

The frags with known pests were dosed in stages along with me removing pests prior so I could experiment with out having to worry about killing the frag.

5ml in 1/2 a plastic cup of water for 5 mins stunned aefw but had little affect on red/black bugs

10ml in 1/2 a cup for 10 minutes killed aefw and red/black bugs but only around the last few minutes

15ml had instant results with aefw causing them to convulse and die within 3-4 minutes...ran out of bug samples to try this on...

Personally I use 10ml for 10 minutes and make a separate solution of 20ml and leave them in for 5 minutes with a 10 minute soak in clean tank water after. If pests are still seen (which I never have seen them after the 2nd dip) I'd go with the 20ml for another 5 mins.

 

[Dowtish]

I have dipped a mini colony of A. Granulosa for red bugs, and could see at least a dozen of them knocked out or dead after a 10 minute dip. My ratio was 10ml to 1 cup of saltwater. PE was immediate and havent seen a red bug since.

 

[revhtree]

Very interesting and great write up! Thank you!

 

[Murfman]

Thanks for the write up. I crosslinked to our local forum.

 

[Steviereefs]

Wow!! Pretty cool, something for people to think about with the redbug killer pill shortage.

 

[64Ivy]

I've been using Bayer's for a few months now, even on 'deepwater' frags and LPS without a loss. I make a gallon of solution at a time (to 40ml of Bayer's) and store it until I need it. The only other differences are that I always toss a small powerhead into mixture and my dip time is usually 10 minutes. My old Incerceptor bath would take 6 hours! Happy camper here.

 

[Bry]

Great write up.. Thanks for sharing your process!

 

[lawnman]

Nice write up but I would not recommend this for frags. I am very familiar with pesticides and herbicides. That is how I make my living. I am very familiar with imidacloprid made for homeowners. I use a similiar product by Merit and Premise. How imidacloprid works is by shutting the nervous system down of a insect which slowly results in death. I believe a frag could still hold some imidacloprid even after a rinse and a fish could easily injest this. Not bashing at all I just disapprove of this method. I am licensed to apply many different pesticides and herbicides. Just my 2 cents.

 

[redfishbluefish]

Very nice write-up.


I’m a little surprised at your relatively concentrated mixture. When I convert everything to mls, you put in 10 mls of Bayer for 118 mls of tank water. I’ve been diluting 4 – 5 mls of Bayer to 500 mls of tank water. That’s roughly a tenth of the dilution you use….and I’ve had great success at that concentration. The difference is that I keep the frag in the water for 15 to 20 minutes. I got my dilution info from THIS Youtube video that’s been out for some time.


Before I started using this I investigated this stuff and found that is is based on a nicotine mixture that happens to be a neurotoxin to the little pests we find on our corals.

 

[watchguy123]

I've been using Bayer's for a few months now, even on 'deepwater' frags and LPS without a loss. I make a gallon of solution at a time (to 40ml of Bayer's) and store it until I need it. The only other differences are that I always toss a small powerhead into mixture and my dip time is usually 10 minutes. My old Incerceptor bath would take 6 hours! Happy camper here.

I think a powerhead or baster is probably a very good idea. No one is quite clear on how long the dip should last so 5 or 10 minutes seem to be ok. Don't know if added dipping time increases stress or improves pest kill rate on the frag or not, just like not sure if dosage increases stress or improves pest destruction. Seems to be a very broad therapeutic range but would certainly prefer the least amount necessary in dosage and time.

Nice write up but I would not recommend this for frags. I am very familiar with pesticides and herbicides. That is how I make my living. I am very familiar with imidacloprid made for homeowners. I use a similiar product by Merit and Premise. How imidacloprid works is by shutting the nervous system down of a insect which slowly results in death. I believe a frag could still hold some imidacloprid even after a rinse and a fish could easily injest this. Not bashing at all I just disapprove of this method. I am licensed to apply many different pesticides and herbicides. Just my 2 cents.

Well, your point is very well taken. It is a real potential concern however, based on my personal experience, like I said I have dipped at least a 100 frags and rinsed/soaked as described and my fish (purple tang, pacific blue tang, yellow tang, about six wrasses, diamond goby, false percula clowns) seem to be unaffected. I have been doing this for about a year. And there are lots of other reefers, who have used this technique as well. Bottomline, I do not want to kill my fish, I do not want to kill my frags and i most definitely don't want destructive pests in my tank. I think this technique is successful and certainly more successful than Coral Rx, Revive or lugols. The question is: what's the cost to our tank inhabitants if we use this stuff or if we do not.

Very nice write-up.


I’m a little surprised at your relatively concentrated mixture. When I convert everything to mls, you put in 10 mls of Bayer for 118 mls of tank water. I’ve been diluting 4 – 5 mls of Bayer to 500 mls of tank water. That’s roughly a tenth of the dilution you use….and I’ve had great success at that concentration. The difference is that I keep the frag in the water for 15 to 20 minutes. I got my dilution info from THIS Youtube video that’s been out for some time.


Before I started using this I investigated this stuff and found that is is based on a nicotine mixture that happens to be a neurotoxin to the little pests we find on our corals.

The correct and least dosage is unknown yet. Reefers like you and I have read and listened to others, and accepted some dosage that makes sense to us, right or wrong. The difficulty is that the evidence for success is empirical. You feel like your dosage is correct, others have their own dosage and until either some scientific research happens on this issue, or the guy using the least dosage will get an infestation and we will discover that his dosage was not enough. Since 1.) there seems to be this large variation in dosage, 2.) apparently little mortality to our frags, and 3.) apparent success in preventing infestation, then it seems like there is a wide range of therapeutic safety. And yes, I would like to use the least amount possible and still prevent infestation. I certainly do not know what the "correct" dosage is, I can only report my experience to date and I appreciate and believe it is important that you share your experience as well. Hopefully, we will begin to uncover the answers by our combined efforts. Of course, we could take about 20 mls of this Bayer, put it in a tiny bottle, relabel it as "Reef Pest Killer", make a gazillion dollars and fund our own scientific research.

 

[Kawicivic]

Very nice write-up.


I’m a little surprised at your relatively concentrated mixture. When I convert everything to mls, you put in 10 mls of Bayer for 118 mls of tank water. I’ve been diluting 4 – 5 mls of Bayer to 500 mls of tank water. That’s roughly a tenth of the dilution you use….and I’ve had great success at that concentration. The difference is that I keep the frag in the water for 15 to 20 minutes. I got my dilution info from THIS Youtube video that’s been out for some time.


Before I started using this I investigated this stuff and found that is is based on a nicotine mixture that happens to be a neurotoxin to the little pests we find on our corals.

I think you are using the bayer with germ killer product in a spray bottle. I believe that is the dosage for that specific product. There are 3 types of the bayer product on the market.

I am curious - Lawnman - do you know if all of these items use the same ingredient and would you recommend any of the other variants?

I have seen empirical evidence that all will work but the dosing is different for each product I believe.