Red Sea Nopox additive

[petemichelle]

I have been using the complete red sea program on my 29 gal bio cube for 2 years with pretty good success. I have started my 150 gal tank and it is now 7 months old. I have just added corals in the last 60 days and I am starting to implement the red sea program again.


I am using the colors per instructions.


I have a couple of questions that did not come up when I was using my old 29 gal system.


1. my new 150 gal system uses a 4 inch deep sand bed. Is using the NOPOX additive going to effect the anaerobic bacteria? how about the fauna, ie pods and copepods?


2. can I use a phosphate/carbon reactor while using Nopox?.
if the answer is no, than why not? as I understand it, the phosphate part of the reaction is very slow and sometimes even after 6 or 9 months as in my 29 gal the phosphate never drops down to the desired level, so I added a phosphate reactor in which I ran GFO and carbon. it seemed to be okay. and dropped the phosphate level.


3. can I run carbon? how about Chemi Pure Elite?


4. I currently have a refugium, which has cheato, but I am having problems keeping the cheato alive because I believe the nutrient levels are too low. I have the lights on 18 hours a day. If I start running NOPOX, I should, I believe take the cheato out, because there will not be enough nutrients in the water to feed the cheato. I also have a deep sand bed, more than 4 inch or sugar fine sand, in the refugium. should I then shut the lights off in the refugium completely???. how will that effect the snails, amphipods, and copepods, and worms I have in there refugium? do they need any light at all? should I then start feeding the inhabitants of the refugium with a pinch of flake food everyday, or every other day since there will be nothing, no plants, in there for them to eat?


5. I am using Red Sea Energy A & B. every other day. and Phyto Pfeast every other day, mainly because the photo pfeast claims to have phyto planton in it, which I hear feeds some of the corals and again the copepods, and amphipods. if I stop using the photo feast and go strictly Red Sea Energy will it sustain the Phyto Planton dependent critters such as the amphipods?

 

[skinz78]

I've never used it, so I'll give it a bump for you!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

NOPOX is a mixture of vinegar and vodka (ethanol and acetic acid), so you can use it in any situation where one would use organic carbon dosing.

1. It may encourage certain types of anaerobic bacferia and won't impact pods and such, except they may get less algae as food.

2. It is fine to use GAC. If you want to use GFO because phosphate is not low enough, that too is fine. Same with Chemi Pure Elite.

4. The organic carbon dosing may or may not deter macroalgae, depending on how much you dose, but if you drive nutrients especially low, it may die.

5. I do not know what is in Red Sea Energy to answer that one.

FWIW, I use vinegar dosing along with GAC, GFO, skimming, lots of live rock in refugia, and macroalgae.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

5. Do amphopods eat phytoplankton? I thought they ate benthic algae and such.

In any case, I looked up the Red Sea Reef Energy, and it seems a fine thing to dose if you are going to drive nutrients low. I wouldn't dose phytoplankton specifically for amphipods.

 

[petemichelle]

NOPOX is a mixture of vinegar and vodka (ethanol and acetic acid), so you can use it in any situation where one would use organic carbon dosing.

1. It may encourage certain types of anaerobic bacferia and won't impact pods and such, except they may get less algae as food.

2. It is fine to use GAC. If you want to use GFO because phosphate is not low enough, that too is fine. Same with Chemi Pure Elite.

4. The organic carbon dosing may or may not deter macroalgae, depending on how much you dose, but if you drive nutrients especially low, it may die.

5. I do not know what is in Red Sea Energy to answer that one.

FWIW, I use vinegar dosing along with GAC, GFO, skimming, lots of live rock in refugia, and macroalgae.

I'm sorry, and this may seem silly, but what is GAC?

 

[divewsharks]

I'm sorry, and this may seem silly, but what is GAC?

GAC=granular activated carbon

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's a way to clarify the ambiguous term "carbon" which to some people means GAC (activated carbon, as divewsharks mentioned above), and to some people means organic carbon dosing, such as vodka or vinegar.

 

[petemichelle]

NOPOX is a mixture of vinegar and vodka (ethanol and acetic acid), so you can use it in any situation where one would use organic carbon dosing.

1. It may encourage certain types of anaerobic bacferia and won't impact pods and such, except they may get less algae as food.

2. It is fine to use GAC. If you want to use GFO because phosphate is not low enough, that too is fine. Same with Chemi Pure Elite.

4. The organic carbon dosing may or may not deter macroalgae, depending on how much you dose, but if you drive nutrients especially low, it may die.

5. I do not know what is in Red Sea Energy to answer that one.

FWIW, I use vinegar dosing along with GAC, GFO, skimming, lots of live rock in refugia, and macroalgae.

are you running a Deep Sand Bed? I have a 4 inch sugar fine sand bed in the display and the refugium.
i am especially worried that whatever NOPOX is going to do, that it may have an effect on the deep sand bed not developing like it should and start to die and have the rot and death a lot of folks are talking about with a deep sand bed if it's not done right.

so I guess it would help me a lot and reassure me to hear from someone that not only is using a vinegar, volka, or NOPOX dosing, but that also has a thriving deep sand bed that it's working on. thanks guys for all the help. thanks to the gals too. any opinion is greatly appreciated. any actual personal experience worth it's weight in gold to me...
'

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

are you running a Deep Sand Bed? I have a 4 inch sugar fine sand bed in the display and the refugium.
i am especially worried that whatever NOPOX is going to do, that it may have an effect on the deep sand bed not developing like it should and start to die and have the rot and death a lot of folks are talking about with a deep sand bed if it's not done right.

so I guess it would help me a lot and reassure me to hear from someone that not only is using a vinegar, volka, or NOPOX dosing, but that also has a thriving deep sand bed that it's working on. thanks guys for all the help. thanks to the gals too. any opinion is greatly appreciated. any actual personal experience worth it's weight in gold to me...
'

The addition of an organic carbon source may actually help certain organisms in a deep sand bed by providing organics that bacteria in the sand may use to break down nitrate.

Is your concern that once nitrate is reasonably low, such bacteria may decline in numbers? That's possible, I guess, but would happen regardless of how you lowered nitrate.

FWIW, you need not drive nutrients especially low when using organic carbon. How low they go is largely up to you based on how much you dose and how much you feed.

I don't drive them especially low (I don't think) using vinegar.

 

[petemichelle]

The addition of an organic carbon source may actually help certain organisms in a deep sand bed by providing organics that bacteria in the sand may use to break down nitrate.

Is your concern that once nitrate is reasonably low, such bacteria may decline in numbers? That's possible, I guess, but would happen regardless of how you lowered nitrate.

FWIW, you need not drive nutrients especially low when using organic carbon. How low they go is largely up to you based on how much you dose and how much you feed.

I don't drive them especially low (I don't think) using vinegar.

do you have a deep sand bed in which you are dosing vinegar

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

do you have a deep sand bed in which you are dosing vinegar

I dose it just upstream from several large refugia (44 gallon brute cans) mostly filled with live rock and then macroalgae in the top 6".

 

[petemichelle]

okay, heres another question. Since i am starting there use or Red Sea Colors, and Red Sea Energy, will the UV Sterilizer, GFO/Carbon reactor, and Skimmer take the additives right back out. I know, and am presently cutting off the skimmer for a few hours during and after dosing, but how about the UV sterilizer, and GFO/Carbon reactor, should I also turn them off for a few hours during and after dosing? how about after they turn back on, after a few hours, will they then take out of the water the additives I just added. ie iron, potassium, iodine, etc???

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A UV and GFO/carbon won't have a big impact on organic carbon dosing, assuming you use something ordinary like vodka or vinegar or NOPOX.

GAC may bind some of the vitamins and possibly some amino acids from the Red Sea products. It won't bind many trace elements, unless they bind to organics and the organics bind to the GAC. Some, such as copper, may fall into that latter category.

 

[petemichelle]

okay, I dosed and got the correct levels of iodine, potassium, and iron. I also had a daily dosage of 10ml a day to keep the iron at .15, which is the recommended level. anyway, as soon as I got it situated, I turned on the skimmer and uv light. the skimmer is a Aqua C 240, with a mag drive 18 driving it. the UV light is a emperor aquatics 40 watt light, with a mag drive 250 pushing that. Inside of a day, all... and I mean ALL the iron was sucked out of the system. Any thoughts... I guess I have to level the system out again and turn only one device on and see what happens. probably the UV light first because I believe that it would be the skimmer that's taking out the additive. any thoughts???

it takes 65ml to bring the iron up to .15 from 0. instead of dosing 10ml per day and the system never reaching recommended levels because whatever it is sucks it right out of the water inside of a day, i figure I would dose the full 65ml and turn whatever i find is the culprit off for a day or two so that the corals can take in the nutrients and then turn the skimmer/Uv light back on for a day or two and alternate like that. what do you guys think???

any suggestions or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How did you decide on 0.15 iron, and what units are those? ppm?

Any kit reading of iron is way too much, IMO.

NSW surface levels of iron are more like 0.000006 ppm.

I do not recommend dosing enough to measure with any available test kit.

This has more:

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/re...-coral-reef-aquarium-randy-holmes-farley.html

from it:

Iron


The iron concentration is low enough that is limiting to the growth of phytoplankton in parts of the ocean, and may be limiting to macroalgae and turf algae in many reef aquaria. Because of its short supply and critical importance, it is also subject to aggressive sequestration by bacteria, algae, and other marine organisms. Consequently, aquarists might consider dosing iron if they grow macroalgae or have an algal turf scrubber, and possible even if they do not.


Iron is not easy to measure at levels normally encountered in the ocean or in marine aquaria. Kits cannot read low enough to detect the low levels involved, unless it is dosed in unusually large amounts. It is also not easy to determine which of its many forms are bioavailable in seawater, and which are not. Consequently, aquarists should not target a specific concentration, but rather should decide if they want to dose any at all, and then use a reasonable dosage going forward to observe the effects. The reason to dose iron is that macroalgae and turf algae may benefit from it. If you are not growing these algae, then you may not need to monitor or dose iron at all.


Deciding how much iron to add is fairly easy because, in my experience, it doesn't seem to matter too much. Presumably, once you add enough to eliminate it as a limiting nutrient, extra iron does not cause apparent harm in most cases (although there are some people who think it can encourage the growth of cyanobacteria). For years I dosed an iron citrate solution, but more recently I've switched to a solution made by dissolving one Fergon tablet (ferrous gluconate; an iron supplement for people available in drug stores) in about 20 mL of RO/DI water. The tablet disintegrates after soaking overnight. Then I shake up the mixture, let any solids settle out, and dose about 1-2 mL of this clear greenish fluid once or twice a week to my system with a total water volume of about 300 gallons.


If you buy a commercial iron supplement, I'd advise using only iron supplements that contain iron chelated to an organic molecule. The iron sold for freshwater applications is sometimes not chelated because free iron is more soluble in the lower pH of freshwater aquaria. I'd avoid those products in marine applications. It will likely still work, as many of the studies in the scientific literature use free iron in seawater, but probably not as well because it may precipitate before it has fully fortified the system with iron.


In many cases of iron products intended for the marine hobby, the product may not state what the iron is chelated with, in order to protect proprietary formulations. I don't actually know if it matters much. Very strong chelation by certain molecules will actually inhibit bioavailability by prohibiting release of the iron unless the chelating molecule is completely taken apart, but I expect that manufacturers have avoided those molecules. EDTA, citrate, and some others actually degrade photochemically, continually releasing small amounts of free iron. It is believed to be the free iron that many of the organisms actually take up.


It should be noted that iron may be a limiting factor for many organisms other than macroalgae. These might include microalgae, bacteria (even pathogenic bacteria), cyanobacteria, and diatoms. If unexpected problems should arise, backing off or stopping the iron additions may be warranted.

 

[petemichelle]

I would believe it is .15 ppm and that is what the Red Sea Colors Test Kit and the Red Sea Colors Supplements recommend. hmmmm....
I was in touch with Red Sea support and they say that the problem I am having is common and I should dose an amount based on Calcium uptake per day. So I have 135 of water in my system after misusing the rock and sand and such. I use Bulk Reef Supply supplements with my bubble magus doser, and I dose 175 ML of calcium and 175ml of alk per day. This is pretty stable with no adjustments for at least 10 days and the calcium level is stable at 430. alk at 9.2. okay according to the BRS calculator that's like 13ppm calcium uptake per day. Red sea suggest 1ml of iron per 25 gal, per 20ppm uptake per day. if my math is close to be correct that's like 4 ml per day.. i hope...


thoughts anyone...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, I'll just repeat that I believe that's way too much iron, regardless of what Red Sea claims. There's no need or benefit from having 25,000 times the natural level.

 

[BlennyKravitz]

NOPOX is a mixture of vinegar and vodka (ethanol and acetic acid), so you can use it in any situation where one would use organic carbon dosing.

1. It may encourage certain types of anaerobic bacferia and won't impact pods and such, except they may get less algae as food.

2. It is fine to use GAC. If you want to use GFO because phosphate is not low enough, that too is fine. Same with Chemi Pure Elite.

4. The organic carbon dosing may or may not deter macroalgae, depending on how much you dose, but if you drive nutrients especially low, it may die.

5. I do not know what is in Red Sea Energy to answer that one.

FWIW, I use vinegar dosing along with GAC, GFO, skimming, lots of live rock in refugia, and macroalgae.

This is an old thread. I am curious if you are still having success with NoPox plus GFO, GAC and macro algae (assuming chaeto?) I run a 20G refugium with chaeto and mangroves outside off a 110G display and 30G sump.

I am running the same with biopellets and have considered stopping that and trying NoPox as I use all the other Red Sea products.\\

thanks in advance!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I never used NOPOX. I used vinegar along with those other methods for a few years until I had to take the tank down for other reasons. I considered it a success.

My refugia grew caulerpa racemosa which was more efficient and outcompeted the chaeto I started with. Nevertheless, I'd recommend chaeto over caulerpa since the caulerpa can move to the display tank and become a bad pest.

 

[racin2438]

I recently started (6 weeks now) using NoPox, and have seen a reduced amount of slime on glass and sand bed . My corals have colored up since adding/using and my Phos levels have come down.
I took my GFO reactor offline.
So far I have been pleased with results, I am dosing 15ml per day........I will keep you posted.