So-Cal Sustain-A-Tank

tjgr34 · Jul 3, 2014

My girlfriend talked me into moving to Orange County (from D.C.) with her about a year ago, and has promised to fund a saltwater tank as part of the bargain. We're set to make the move later this month, which means its time for me to start planning my tank. Relationship advice aside, I'm looking for thoughts about how best to execute my ideas for a set-up.

I'm a conservationist by training, and one of my biggest concerns about moving to southern California is the lack of water. Thinking about water made me realize how resource and energy intensive this hobby is, so I've decided that all of my future aquariums need to be as low-impact as possible. Here are some of my basic constraints:

RO waste water needs to be within the household's (two people) water consumption
Electricity use should be as low as possible. Ideally, I would like to be able to run the tank off of solar panels (DIY, obviously).
Captive bred/fragged livestock only.

Based on those constraints, my preliminary assessment is that I'll be limited to a smallish tank running a closed loop DC pump for circulation. Please let me know if you've thought about this sort of thing before, or any ideas you have. Progress will probably be slow until the fall, so here are some pictures of past projects to keep you entertained.

2011 150G (72x18x27) at my dad's house. There's a sump under the stand, and it's lit with Marineland LEDs.

2012 150G Marineland Cube. We saw it on sale at an LFS, bought it, built it, set up a filter room behind the wall while home from school on winter break.

Different angle.

c.Christmas 2013

Same.

I'm not sure when this one is from, but it's some time after the last set of pictures. It looks like a turned the lights on just to take this pic.

revhtree · Jul 3, 2014

Looking great! Thanks for sharing!

mcarroll · Jul 3, 2014

Can't imagine running a closed loop these days.

Heat inputs may dictate you power consumption "floor"...so figure that as you power budget. No idea if panels will work unless budget is not a problem.

Pumps you choose for flow and filtration (sump) will not add much to the power bill, just reduce the amount of time your heaters run.

I'm afraid you'll be stuck with natural lighting, again unless budget isn't limited for the solar panels. Even with LED my lights take as much power or more than the rest of the system.

Take care to seal the tank against evaporation as well as heat loss as well as you can...this will minimize heating.

I think you should run a small pilot project tank to get a firmer idea of how this will really work out.

$0.02

-Matt

tjgr34 · Jul 3, 2014

I should have mentioned in the introduction. I'm not on an unlimited budget, but it's not much of concern at this point. I know that solar panels would be wildly cost ineffective. I'll probably end up getting the tank set up and then *maybe* get around to the solar stuff in the future. Minimizing the amount electricity used is a goal regardless of whether I'll ultimately be able to run the system on solar.

tjgr34 · Jul 7, 2014

mcarroll's comment about the heat input from pumps,

Pumps you choose for flow and filtration (sump) will not add much to the power bill, just reduce the amount of time your heaters run,

Got me wondering about the efficiencies of various heaters, i.e., at what rate do aquarium heaters convert electricity to heat energy. I did a very quick google search, which didn't uncover anything useful. Does anyone know what this measurement would be called, or where I can find information about it?

mcarroll · Jul 8, 2014

I think because of the Law of Conservation of Energy, all submersible heaters should be equally efficient, and it's fine to measure in watts.

You can even know the amount of heat your (e.g.) lights are putting in your water by the amount of watts, because as it loses energy, heat is the final energy form of light too.

Maybe this will be intesting too: British thermal unit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1000 BTU/h is approximately 293.071 W

-Matt

P.S. Heater reliability and durability are maybe bigger questions.

tjgr34 · Jul 9, 2014

mcarroll said:
I think because of the Law of Conservation of Energy, all submersible heaters should be equally efficient, and it's fine to measure in watts.

I see what you're saying, but I assume that difference in heating element construction (materials and whatnot), protective material (glass vs. ceramic) and other factors would cause some heaters to convert electricity to heat at different rates than others. Based on the fact that heaters all list their outputs in watts, as you say, there may not be any such difference. This sounds like an excellent excuse to get a watt meter and a bunch of different heaters off of craigslist to run some experiments. How d you like your Kill-A-Watt, and which model is it?

Also, it's so strange that BTU's are based on heating a pound of water instead of a particular volume of water.

mcarroll · Jul 9, 2014

Well, I could still be wrong, but inefficiency in electronic devices is typically manifested as heat. So if you're a heater, it seems like electric power is a no-lose situation as long as the electrons don't get outside the circuit. This is why I bet elements and heating particulars make little difference, but reliability and durability OF THEM are key.

Love my KillAWatt meter...it's just the basic model (think I've linked it before if you search...will try to post a link or the model# later.) but they do have a bunch of different ones if you think you might be (no pun) a power user. If I could give every reefer a kit of basic tools they'd never buy, a KillAWatt, a handheld spctrometer, and a handheld lux meter would all be in it. (~$65 for all)

(

Maybe accounting for people whose water was in the form of ice was important to someone at some time? LOL. Definitely a strange standard on the surface of it - I have no idea.

-Matt

cdness · Jul 9, 2014

mcarroll said:
Can't imagine running a closed loop these days.

I still run a closed loop and feel the benefits gained in keeping powerheads out of the tank outweigh the complexities and additional power consumption. However since the newer DC pumps have come out, flow to wattage has become much more efficient and closed loops are viable again for power issues...

For Power, consider just installing something to lower the whole home overall electricity usage instead of trying to run the tank on solar. This way you lower the overall footprint of the house and not running the tank on solely solar power...

You can conserve some power by running solar tubes for primary light. You will need something for evening viewing as well as possible actinic supplimentation to get the colors you want. There are successful tanks built around the solar tube ideas.

Being in California, power is a concern, but the water I think would be even larger of a concern. RODI to fill the tank, plus used for water changes and top offs. I would look into the Spectrapure Ultra High Efficiency 1:1 Ratio RODI units: Ultra High Efficiency 1:1 Ratio Systems . They allow for a very low waste ratio and still produce perfect water. However they are not cheap, but in Ca it may equal itself out over time for water cost...

mcarroll · Jul 11, 2014

tjgr34 said:
[...]I'm a conservationist by training, and one of my biggest concerns about moving to southern California is the lack of water. Thinking about water made me realize how resource and energy intensive this hobby is, so I've decided that all of my future aquariums need to be as low-impact as possible. Here are some of my basic constraints:

RO waste water needs to be within the household's (two people) water consumption

[...]

You might consider trying this out to conserver water by maybe another order of magnitude:
https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/reef-chemistry-forum/162872-dsr-method-dutch-synthetic-reefing.html

That's a current thread over in the chemistry forum. Definitely experimental, but not too far out. Look at it as either a more-comprehensive two-part system, or a more practical, scaled back, DIY-style Balling system. He's got a spreadsheet that must work somewhat like the Reef Chemistry Calculator, but accounts for all the elements he's managing vs just ca, alk and mg. And he seems to get nice results with very, very little water exchange.

Make a post there if you check in!

cdness said:
I still run a closed loop and feel the benefits gained in keeping powerheads out of the tank outweigh the complexities and additional power consumption. However since the newer DC pumps have come out, flow to wattage has become much more efficient and closed loops are viable again for power issues...

A directly-powered (i.e. DC) pump helps in the pump department, but you lose a lot of head pressure, and ultimately it's not enough to overcome the rest of the physical limits introduced by the nature of the closed loop.

For example, the largest Jebao (for example) specs at 3000gph for 85 watts. By comparison, I can pummel a pretty large tank with 7000gph for only 70 watts of Tunze Stream flow. 35 watts there will get about 3000gph.

That's admittedly a very apples/oranges comparison for lots of reasons...but isn't a bad example for illustrating the cost of pushing water through pipes and nozzles vs not. If you don't have to, you probably shouldn't. Of course, there are surely cases where the above isn't the whole story and something like a closed loop could make a lot more sense. Certainly if you already have a tank drilled for one, that's a good case!

cdness said:
For Power, consider just installing something to lower the whole home overall electricity usage instead of trying to run the tank on solar. This way you lower the overall footprint of the house and not running the tank on solely solar power...

You can conserve some power by running solar tubes for primary light. You will need something for evening viewing as well as possible actinic supplimentation to get the colors you want. There are successful tanks built around the solar tube ideas.

Being in California, power is a concern, but the water I think would be even larger of a concern. RODI to fill the tank, plus used for water changes and top offs. I would look into the Spectrapure Ultra High Efficiency 1:1 Ratio RODI units: Ultra High Efficiency 1:1 Ratio Systems . They allow for a very low waste ratio and still produce perfect water. However they are not cheap, but in Ca it may equal itself out over time for water cost...

I like all these ideas!

"Solatubes" and other similar brands are probably the main natural lighting solution unless you happen to already have skylights of another sort installed. Unless you and your corals like 6500K lighting, you'll definitely want to add some blue light to get the "usual" tank look of around 14kK-20kK. Reading other solar tube-user experiences in advance will be invaluable because there have been some pretty mixed experiences along the way to success for most users...some good (known) "mistakes" to avoid.

-Matt

tjgr34 · Jul 23, 2014

Thanks for your input, guys. I've been busy for the past month, and will continue to be for the next couple of weeks (CA bar exam in about a week), so I apologize for my delayed responses.

You can conserve some power by running solar tubes for primary light.

I like the idea of solar tubes, but we will be renting for at least a couple of years before we'll have saved enough for a down payment on a house, and I'm not going to hold my breath hoping that any landlord will let me install tubes in the roof.

I would look into the Spectrapure Ultra High Efficiency 1:1 Ratio RODI units: Ultra High Efficiency 1:1 Ratio Systems .

These things are nuts! I had not idea that they made 1:1 RO systems! I'm going to look around for something smaller than 100GPD, as I think this tank is going to end up being fairly small.

The DSR Method looks very interesting. I need to read more about it and it's use history, but it seems solid. My only concern is related to what might happen if I neglect the tank for a week or three.

I think I mis-used the term closed loop. A meant to refer to a situation in which all of my water movement would come from multiple return outlets. I'm not sure what that's called. Anyway, I see your point about head and pressure loss. I wonder if building a stand that raises the sump up a couple of feet would be worth the effort...I'm not sure how a skimmer would fit into such a setup, anyway.

For example, the largest Jebao (for example) specs at 3000gph for 85 watts. By comparison, I can pummel a pretty large tank with 7000gph for only 70 watts of Tunze Stream flow. 35 watts there will get about 3000gph.

Can you think of a good way to avoid "doubling up" on pumps (having both a return pumps and circ. pumps?) I'm assuming that there is a base wattage that will have to be used on a return pump and that the increased wattage required to achieve acceptable, but certainly not identical to a circ. pump, circulation from the return will be less than the wattage increase from a second (or third) pump. Again, I need to put in the time to do some homework and see if this assumption is correct.

fishroomlady · Jul 23, 2014

totally unrelated to the original thread questions but good luck on the bar!!

mcarroll · Jul 23, 2014

tjgr34 said:
[...]The DSR Method looks very interesting. I need to read more about it and it's use history, but it seems solid. My only concern is related to what might happen if I neglect the tank for a week or three.

I would strongly recommend against stony corals if this is a likely scenario. Leathers at most, but sticking with polyps and true softies would really be the safest bet. No matter which dosing regime you select, you'd have to automate the he** out of it.

tjgr34 said:
I think I mis-used the term closed loop. A meant to refer to a situation in which all of my water movement would come from multiple return outlets. I'm not sure what that's called. Anyway, I see your point about head and pressure loss. I wonder if building a stand that raises the sump up a couple of feet would be worth the effort...I'm not sure how a skimmer would fit into such a setup, anyway.

Sounds like a closed loop to me...a simple split return isn't going to cut it except for the most low-flow-tolerant corals, if that is what you meant though.

tjgr34 said:
Can you think of a good way to avoid "doubling up" on pumps (having both a return pumps and circ. pumps?) I'm assuming that there is a base wattage that will have to be used on a return pump and that the increased wattage required to achieve acceptable, but certainly not identical to a circ. pump, circulation from the return will be less than the wattage increase from a second (or third) pump. Again, I need to put in the time to do some homework and see if this assumption is correct.

It's no contest in terms of power usage...pumps in the tank are at least one whole order of magnitude more efficient. You would be better off looking at the power savings from being able to down-size your sump pump. 2x-4x your display volume is all the flow you really need through a filter....and 4x is quite a bit. More isn't better.

-Matt

mcarroll · Jul 24, 2014

A good (i.e. obvious) example just occurred to me.

Look at the MaxiJet 1200 powerhead. With it set up for in-tank circulation, you can expect around 1300 gph. Take the same motorblock and configure it for powerhead mode, channelling that same power into a pipe - and you knock that flow rate down to less than 300 gph. At least by the numbers, that's a 77% flow reduction. Even if you doubt Marineland's numbers, the picture that's painted is still clear: Pumping water through pipes is not efficient!

In terms of saving power, you really want to move as little water this was as you can. Going sumpless would actually be a great way to shave a nice chunk off you power budget! (Put it back into lights!) There's tons of equipment designed for this scenario, so it's not a bad idea to consider.

-Matt

tjgr34 · Oct 28, 2014

Sorry for the delays, but moving across the country, taking CA's Bar exam (not recommended) and getting married took a lot of time. The wife and I are settling into a new apartment and, of course, I've acquired a new fish tank. Mcarroll's input lead to my decision to go sumpless, so that's what I'm doing. I got a 36 gallon AGA (pre-Aqueon) tank off of Craigslist and am really excited about getting it going. Here is a pic of the tank passing its leak test:

I want to get a piece of black acrylic to create a refugium in the tank's back corner. It will basically be an overflow box that doesn't go anywhere. I'll put a heater, one of Tunze's newer nano skimmers, and a small circulation pump back there. Thoughts? Alternately, I could just skip the refugium and try to hide all the equipment behind rocks.

leptang · Oct 28, 2014

You can save a lot of water by using real seawater, it is 100% free seawater that goes threw 3 large filters that birch aquarium uses. Its right next to a pier cant miss it. You can see the filters on google map 8648 Kennel Way, La Jolla, CA 92037 i use it all the time, i just add a little salt mix in it because its at 33ppt so i raise the salinity to 35ppt

leptang · Oct 28, 2014

I have two 55g food grade drums i use to so i dont have to make as many trips there.

tjgr34 · Oct 28, 2014

You can save a lot of water by using real seawater, it is 100% free seawater that goes threw 3 large filters that birch aquarium uses. Its right next to a pier cant miss it.

This is a great idea, leptang! Unfortunately, I'm in Irvine and La Jolla is a bit too far to go. Do you know of any closer to LA? How much do they charge for water?

Mcarroll directed me to Tunze's Reefpacks, and I'm definitely going to get one instead of making my own. This seems like a really cool product.

leptang · Oct 28, 2014

tjgr34 said:
This is a great idea, leptang! Unfortunately, I'm in Irvine and La Jolla is a bit too far to go. Do you know of any closer to LA? How much do they charge for water?

Mcarroll directed me to Tunze's Reefpacks, and I'm definitely going to get one instead of making my own. This seems like a really cool product.

I dont really know of any place thats free like in la jolla. But here is a service that delivers.Aquarium Salt Water | Real Ocean Saltwater | Commercial Saltwater Delivery

To be honest i wouldn't want any water off of LA shores do to the shipping industry.