Question about flow in a DSB

[petemichelle]

hey, you guys who know about the pros on the DSB. what size return pumps are you using? I am in the middle of a 150 gal build right now. I have tap water in the tank to check for leaks and function. the tank has 2 durso overflows on the back (not corners). I called aqueon and they say the overflows are rated at 600 gph. I have 2 mag 9's for the return and it is just noisy. I have tried putting the rigid tubing down the durso's, I have tried making stockman returns and they are just as loud. The only thing I can think of doing is going with smaller pumps. The mags are rated at 680 gph at 5 feet, which is the height of the return line outlet in the display tank. One of the returns run through a UV sterilizer, and I can physically feel the difference between that line and the one that is going straight into the tank, so it's got to be at least a third less. anyway, the question is how much flow do you usually shoot for on the return pumps? I plan on using 3 vortex mp40's for the powerheads, so overall total flow is not really my concern. everybody keeps giving me the same formula of 10 times the capacity of the display, for total flow. Which doesn't help with my question of "what is the minimal and what is the average return pump size one should get for a 150 gal display???? can I cut it to 600 or 700 total? would that hurt or diminish the overall system in anyway for a deep sand bed, if I make up for the overall flow with my power head????

thanks for any light you can shed on this...

 

[petemichelle]

I'm trying to do a deep sand bed, in fact i'm right in the middle of my build, and I'm trying to get some advise from people who are doing Deep Sand Beds, not shallow or glass bottoms. I want to know what is the minimum flow rate that they use on the returns, and if it hurts the dynamics of a Deep Sand Bed by cutting it too low.

 

[vlangel]

I can't give you a pump size but I can tell you that I have had multiple tanks with DSBs, some with higher flow and some with low flow and I didn't see that the sand bed was greatly effected. I did avoid having such high flow that the sand bed would be swept or trenched in any spots as that does disrupt the anaerobic activity.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Made this question its own thread to get better visibility.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I have a DSB in my 180. I am running a DC9000 for the return. My understanding is that for your return you want to have it cycling your whole system volume somewhere between 7-10 times per hour. That way the total volume is going through the sump 7-10 times per hour. For my tank this ends up being right at 2000 gallons per hour (10x). Your total flow should be much higher IMHO, but you have that more than covered with your vortechs. I've also heard that your return should be matched to your skimmer's ability to process the water, but I wouldn't use that approach bc the skimmer isn't processing all of the water that hits the sump. Hope this is helpful info for you.

 

[petemichelle]

I have a DSB in my 180. I am running a DC9000 for the return. My understanding is that for your return you want to have it cycling your whole system volume somewhere between 7-10 times per hour. That way the total volume is going through the sump 7-10 times per hour. For my tank this ends up being right at 2000 gallons per hour (10x). Your total flow should be much higher IMHO, but you have that more than covered with your vortechs. I've also heard that your return should be matched to your skimmer's ability to process the water, but I wouldn't use that approach bc the skimmer isn't processing all of the water that hits the sump. Hope this is helpful info for you.

what kind of overflows are you using? mines are really noisy, hence this thread and the question about the amount of flow. I've tried sticking rigid tubing down the dorso and i've tried the stockman returns nothing seems to make a difference. the only thin I can think of is slowing them down but then I don't get the volume or flow through the returns. I'll be lucky to get 5 times with them being relatively quite. I wouldn't even call them quite at that point just not noisy. any suggestions on this front?

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I have a beansanimal system, but that's not much help to you since you'd have to redrill your tank for that. If 5 times is about as quiet as you can handle, then that's what I'd do. What's causing your noise issue? Is it the water going into the overflow (sucking, gurgling, etc) or coming out in the sump (crashing, waterfall noise, etc)?

 

[AZDesertRat]

I have a 100G with a 5-6" 330 lb Southdown DSB. The over flow is a modified old style 1" Stockman with the top cap drilled for a short piece of airline tubing to feed air and the return is a Water Blaster HY-5000 wide open. The returns go through an Oceans Motions Squirt two way current switching device and there are two Jebao WP-25s on Else mode, one in each back corner. Flows are pretty chaotic but the sand stays in place well. Totally silent.

 

[petemichelle]

I have a beansanimal system, but that's not much help to you since you'd have to redrill your tank for that. If 5 times is about as quiet as you can handle, then that's what I'd do. What's causing your noise issue? Is it the water going into the overflow (sucking, gurgling, etc) or coming out in the sump (crashing, waterfall noise, etc)?

mostly gurgling and sucking, but when I look into the sump I can see and hear the big air surges coming out of the down pipe which extends about 4 inches under the water level of the sump.

 

[petemichelle]

I have a 100G with a 5-6" 330 lb Southdown DSB. The over flow is a modified old style 1" Stockman with the top cap drilled for a short piece of airline tubing to feed air and the return is a Water Blaster HY-5000 wide open. The returns go through an Oceans Motions Squirt two way current switching device and there are two Jebao WP-25s on Else mode, one in each back corner. Flows are pretty chaotic but the sand stays in place well. Totally silent.

I tried building 2 stockman with the top cap drilled with an airline and valve on it. still noise. what did you mean by a modified old style? mines is also a 1 inch drain line. I am only running a little over 700 gph total on both return pumps. it's driving me nuts.

 

[CastAway]

I have a single 1-1/2" durso on my 150, and am moving about 1500gph through it. I find that what's noisy is not the durso itself, but the water fall from the teeth in the weir down to the water level inside the weir. I've consider using a taller standpipe to lessen the distance of the water fall, or, using some high ppi foam to disrupt the splash. I've read that the longer the standpipe the more flow. Mine is noisy too, so I'm tagging along. Using the foam is a last resort for me, as I think theres risk of the foam somehow blocking the durso and causing an overflow on my floors. If had it to do all over again, I'd have added a second emergency overflow, or, gone to a two inch durso. Hindsight is always 20/20. :squigglemouth:

 

[AZDesertRat]

I have a hole in the Stockman cap just large enough for a piece of vinyl airline tubing to fit in snugly. I cut the tubing maybe a foot long and very very slowly lower it down into the hole, watching the display water level and listening to the noise until it reaches its sweet spot. Its usually just when the tubing contacts the water surface in the standpipe or slightly lower so it creates a smooth laminar flow. Gurgling quits and the flow takes off like crazy and best of all its completely silent at this point.

I bought a couple Maggie Mufflers which are a copy of the Stockman and bone stock they were noisy. I tried drilling one with the airline tubing and it did quiet it down some but not as quiet as the DIY Stockman so I went back to it.

Jeff, try adding a telescoping coupling like used to repair landscape sprinkling pipes. Cut a few inches out of your standpipe and slip the telescope in and you can adjust the height up and down to eliminate the falling water sound.

 

[petemichelle]

Okay just put in 150 lbs of dry rock and 4 inches of oceans direct live sand "number 0, sugar fine" in my brand new tank. I will order a starter/detrivore kit from inland aquatics just like you guys suggested. I do have a real big concern that just came up. I have a 29 gal bio cube which used to have worms and cop epodes and amphipods because I started it with real live rock. Then one day I realized they were all gone. Seems the 6 line wrasse I put in ate them all. Boo hoo. I obviously will not be putting any wrasse's in my new tank and will probably get rid of the one in my bio cube. Since the pods and worms are an integral part of the deep sand bed I am concerned that other fishes that I introduce may also eat them. Currently I hane a percula clown, a green chromis, a fire goby, and a hippo tang in my cube. Will any of these fish feed on the worms and pods? The clown in perticular, I keep getting different opinions but when asked directly nobody who has made a comment has ever had a deep sand bed or has direct experience. Just a he said, she said, they read somewhere...

Anybody with direct experience? I was hoping , since most of you guys on this thread have had deep sand beds. This is my first deep sand bed and my second salt water tank, so I,m really looking to you guys with the experience so I don,t fall on my face.

What kind of fishes were "deep sand bed safe"?? They should make a category for this' like reef safe is a category. I don't want to spend a whole lot of money and effort seeding this sand bed, just to find out I was only feeding the fishes in a very expensive way. I was also thinking about adding Angels. Ie; royal angels and Emplorers angels.

 

[petemichelle]

I have a DSB in my 180. I am running a DC9000 for the return. My understanding is that for your return you want to have it cycling your whole system volume somewhere between 7-10 times per hour. That way the total volume is going through the sump 7-10 times per hour. For my tank this ends up being right at 2000 gallons per hour (10x). Your total flow should be much higher IMHO, but you have that more than covered with your vortechs. I've also heard that your return should be matched to your skimmer's ability to process the water, but I wouldn't use that approach bc the skimmer isn't processing all of the water that hits the sump. Hope this is helpful info for you.[/QUOT

What kind of fish do you keep in your 180 with the deep sand bed. Do they eat the worms and Copepoda and amphipods in your sand bed? I would love some help with suggestions on stocking my tank from people with deep sand bed experience. I'm afraid of introducing the wrong fish and they wiping out the fauna in the dsb, and then the sand bed dying. I'm particularly concerned about the clown fish because it was going to be my first fish.

 

[vlangel]

I have always had DSBs in my tanks and clownfish are fine. Its only some of the sand sifting gobies that you need to be careful of depleting the worm and pod population. Even wrasses and dragonet's will only eat the pods and such they find on the surface or rock work. Enough pods and worms will be under the surface of the sand to maintain a healthy population. I have been utilizing DSBs for 15years without any problems so I wouldn't be nervous. Just be careful not to overfeed and gunk it up.

 

[tyler1503]

I can't answer in terms of a DSB, but you should try to aim for matching the flow from your return to the fastest flowing mechanical filtration pump in the sump (usually a skimmer).
For instance, if your skimmer is rated for 500GPH aim for about 500GPH return pump. Any extra flow is unnecessary. That's how I look at it, it may be wrong, it may be right. I just know it works for me

 

[petemichelle]

I have always had DSBs in my tanks and clownfish are fine. Its only some of the sand sifting gobies that you need to be careful of depleting the worm and pod population. Even wrasses and dragonet's will only eat the pods and such they find on the surface or rock work. Enough pods and worms will be under the surface of the sand to maintain a healthy population. I have been utilizing DSBs for 15years without any problems so I wouldn't be nervous. Just be careful not to overfeed and gunk it up.[/QUOTE

thank you for that. I presently don't have anything in the tank. I started it with dry rock and natures ocean live sand in bags. I did this so as not to introduce unwanted hitch hikers. I have a 30 gal bio cube and the hitch hiker situation and unwanted sponges that have popped up have driven me up the wall. I guess I can just buy amphi pods and cope pods by the 100's and even 1000's and just introduce them after the cycling is done. that and some good bristle and spaghetti worms. that should seed the display tank and sump. any suggestion on that front? I appreciate your input because you have the experience with a Deep Sand Bed.

by the way, as I said the tank is only 3 weeks old, but how long before I start seeing the bubbles in the sand bed, you know when I look through the glass front?

 

[vlangel]

I have always had DSBs in my tanks and clownfish are fine. Its only some of the sand sifting gobies that you need to be careful of depleting the worm and pod population. Even wrasses and dragonet's will only eat the pods and such they find on the surface or rock work. Enough pods and worms will be under the surface of the sand to maintain a healthy population. I have been utilizing DSBs for 15years without any problems so I wouldn't be nervous. Just be careful not to overfeed and gunk it up.[/QUOTE

thank you for that. I presently don't have anything in the tank. I started it with dry rock and natures ocean live sand in bags. I did this so as not to introduce unwanted hitch hikers. I have a 30 gal bio cube and the hitch hiker situation and unwanted sponges that have popped up have driven me up the wall. I guess I can just buy amphi pods and cope pods by the 100's and even 1000's and just introduce them after the cycling is done. that and some good bristle and spaghetti worms. that should seed the display tank and sump. any suggestion on that front? I appreciate your input because you have the experience with a Deep Sand Bed.

by the way, as I said the tank is only 3 weeks old, but how long before I start seeing the bubbles in the sand bed, you know when I look through the glass front?

You are welcome petemichelle. Buying pods seems like a good plan to seed the tank. Wow, I didn't know you could buy bristleworms, I should think about going into business.LOL
It will definitely be awhile before you see bubbles in the sand bed. The last time I set up a new DSB was 2007 and I just don't remember how long it took.

 

[petemichelle]

You are welcome petemichelle. Buying pods seems like a good plan to seed the tank. Wow, I didn't know you could buy bristleworms, I should think about going into business.LOL
It will definitely be awhile before you see bubbles in the sand bed. The last time I set up a new DSB was 2007 and I just don't remember how long it took.

I know what you mean about the bristle worms. I found it on Indo Pacific sea farms. seems like they are the only ones selling them. but they guarantee they are the good bristle and spaghetti worms. sometimes I feel like I'm going against the flow of traffic here, I'm trying to seed my sand bed with what others are trying to get rid of...

but what I hear is that you definitely need the good bristle worms, other wise the sand bed will fill with detritus and die. same with the pods and brittle star fish. remember I have started with dry rock so I have nothing in there right now.

 

[petemichelle]

my tanks has been up and running now for 7 or more months it's pretty great. thanks a lot to you and the info you guys have shared. I wanted to ask another question if I may. have you ever used Red Sea's NOPOX system. it's kind of like a vodka, or vinegar, carbon dosing to reduce the nitrates and phosphates? right now my nitrates and phosphates are so low that the cheato in my refugium won't stay alive. Nitrates around 3 ppm, and phosphates around .04. so I was going to start dosing with this NOPOX to bring it down even more and keep it stable. My concern is that it may have ill effects on the 4 inch deep sand bed. what are your thoughts, and have you ever used any kind of dosing, or heard of it working with deep sand beds. or have you heard of it not working....