Is liverock really so good???

Diesel

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It been a while that I posted something that will scratch your hair of your head, ( if you have hair of course) if hairless it will tickle your brains, LOL.
But I ran into this discussion with a few.
Now there's is a study and still I'm not convinced but the more I think about it and go back 35 years when we started to use lavarock in filters it makes sense.
That's why I used most of my LR I had as dense as possible and in the sump a Cell-Pore.
Tank crashes can happen and in most cases we can relate to something you did yourself to the system.
Not very often you have something happening and can't explain why!!
Maybe we should look into this a little deeper..............
Check out the link and lets hear what you think.

Does the surface area of live rock really matter?
 

Daniel@R2R

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Interesting write-up. It kind of mimics the arguments between bare-bottom guys and DSB guys. I have personally run DSB's in the past for denitrification and more surface area for beneficial bacteria...however, I am finding the same thing that these guys are talking about with the pores in LR...all that surface area is also great for housing detritus. Now, I'm not anti-DSB nor am I anti porous LR (BRING ON THE PUKANI!), but I do think that these are issues we should be aware of and weigh out in our overall reef-keeping methodology.
 

Mike J.

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Well, before we start bashing porous live rock for our detritus build up problem. Maybe we should examine our husbandry methods. I didn't read anything in the article about nitrate and phosphate levels, protein skimming, nutrient removal methods, overfeeding, or clean up crew members. What I did get out of the article was the aquarium was nice at the one year mark. In keeping with the author's message: What's rarely talked about is anybody with money can set up an aquarium, but maintaining one for 5 or 10 years is a different story.

Sorry, guess my tolerance level is low this morning.
 

-Logzor

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I think it's a sound argument. For example, there are low-flow areas in my reef, places near colonies where it's hard to get adequate circulation. In these areas detritus has collected and then algae starts to grow out of the detritus that has compacted into the porous areas of the rock. If my rock was smooth a non-porous, then I think it would be more difficult for detritus to collect and algae to grow.

Similar to how you might seen on land, where rock outcroppings accumulate soil over time, allowing plants to grow where they normally couldn't have.

Live rock is no different.

While biological filtration may or may not be important, sweeping away nutrients into our protein skimmers is critical. If we can use less porous rock to help achieve that, then I think it makes good sense, all other factors aside.
 
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DFW

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Well, when I make rock, I make it as porous as I can That slab of ceramic can get clogged up, too, so I don't see why I would not want to do the same thing with all of the rock in the tank. And the rock that I make allows water to flow through it more readily than that ceramic stuff. It has larger diameter paths. The comparatively tiny trails going through that ceramic likely provide some bacterial benefits, but their small size will lend them to clogging long before my home made rock would.
 
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Daniel@R2R

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Well, before we start bashing porous live rock for our detritus build up problem. Maybe we should examine our husbandry methods. I didn't read anything in the article about nitrate and phosphate levels, protein skimming, nutrient removal methods, overfeeding, or clean up crew members. What I did get out of the article was the aquarium was nice at the one year mark. In keeping with the author's message: What's rarely talked about is anybody with money can set up an aquarium, but maintaining one for 5 or 10 years is a different story.

I definitely agree with your statement. My point was just that we need to take the build up of detritus in the pores and crevices of the rock (and in the sand bed) into consideration in our overall methodology/strategy. I personally think that one problem that many reefers have is compartmentalizing parts of their system instead of thinking about how all of the different parts and dynamics come together. So, I think your husbandry argument is excellent. People keep great systems with porous LR and people keep crappy systems with non-porous LR...same thing goes for DSB and BB...it all comes back to methodology and husbandry IMO.

Sorry, guess my tolerance level is low this morning.

LOL When that happens to me it usually means I need my coffee. Ha ha!
 

ritter6788

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What are we going to attach corals to if we only have a slab of ceramic media in the sump? I love my pukani! :)

I do agree in that me may not "need" as much live rock as we have in our tanks but you can't add too much. Add what you like for looks and be happy with it. I've added more liverock to my sump and gone without in my sump without noticing much difference in the long run. I like a lot of liverock in my tanks.
 

JOKER

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Also need to set rock up so get flow around the rock imo. If not will give trouble down the road.
 

s.h.moradi

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As some guys said, I think it mostly depends on our husbandry and clean up crew and of course circulation system in the tank
By supplying at least 20 times water movement in the tank there will be no detritus build up in the live rock! I got no problem about it, after more than 5 years in one of my reef aquariums with lots of LR.
 

jstec

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I agree s.h.moradi and I can remember when I first started out I had my tank set up nicely and had to remove a damsel because It turned evil over night I lifted a rock in front of a power head as I chased him and poof .... That lead me to look deeper into this and I now keep my tanks circulation quite high and thorough
 

neuwave

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I've been thinking about this for a while. I'm in the final stages of upgrading my tank. I'm nearly finished my rock structure. I'm cementing the rock together to get a different type of scape. I've chosen Haitian rock for some unique rock structures. This type of rock is not porous and the cement further smooth out a few rough areas. Now I have a rock structure with a rough surface for growing coral expansion and growth but with few pores. Even in my current tank I've removed the rock rubble from the sump. During water changes I would have a lot of detritus built up in those zones. I'm trying to eliminate most detritus traps in the display and sump.

When I've seen tanks mature over time, coral grow. It encrust over and covers the top portion of porous rock. So the remaining part of porous rock is the underneath and back side. Typically parts of the tank where flow is reduced and detritus just builds up. So I would say this is a decent argument up for debate. How many people have you seen or heard, known to add a powerhead behind their rock structure for added flow?

Here's anther tank event I've heard people say over the years. Mostly in sps dominated tanks. As I've heard less complaints in old soft or lps coral tanks. Old-tank syndrome? Could it be that those sps tanks with such large acro colonies blocking/reducing flow from previous high flow areas such as the pores in a rock? Leaving the detritus to just sit there? Just food for thought.
 

Eckolancer

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I run bare bottom with all man made ceramic. My sump is biopellets and skimmer. Filter sock changed maybe 2 times a week. Also don't do water changes. Tank is looking good growing sps like weeds lately. For some reason my acans are not happy but some acans are very happy. As well as Zoas growing fast. Here is a pic from a while back sold some big colonies recently.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1415246304.858895.jpg
 

DFW

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I've been thinking about this for a while. I'm in the final stages of upgrading my tank. I'm nearly finished my rock structure. I'm cementing the rock together to get a different type of scape. I've chosen Haitian rock for some unique rock structures. This type of rock is not porous and the cement further smooth out a few rough areas. Now I have a rock structure with a rough surface for growing coral expansion and growth but with few pores. Even in my current tank I've removed the rock rubble from the sump. During water changes I would have a lot of detritus built up in those zones. I'm trying to eliminate most detritus traps in the display and sump.

When I've seen tanks mature over time, coral grow. It encrust over and covers the top portion of porous rock. So the remaining part of porous rock is the underneath and back side. Typically parts of the tank where flow is reduced and detritus just builds up. So I would say this is a decent argument up for debate. How many people have you seen or heard, known to add a powerhead behind their rock structure for added flow?

Here's anther tank event I've heard people say over the years. Mostly in sps dominated tanks. As I've heard less complaints in old soft or lps coral tanks. Old-tank syndrome? Could it be that those sps tanks with such large acro colonies blocking/reducing flow from previous high flow areas such as the pores in a rock? Leaving the detritus to just sit there? Just food for thought.


I have had a power head connected to a hose that goes behind the rock structure in my display since I set up my tank almost 6 years ago. The hose curves up a few inches off the bottom of the tank behind the rock, is capped off at the end, and has 3 slits 4 inches long pointing to the sides, and upwards. There is no detritus sink behind these rocks! When I set this up I did not know anyone that had ever had a saltwater tank before. It's just common sense that you can't let muck pile up in your tank! The tank would look better without that extra PH in the back corner, but oh well.
 

DFW

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I run bare bottom with all man made ceramic. My sump is biopellets and skimmer. Filter sock changed maybe 2 times a week. Also don't do water changes. Tank is looking good growing sps like weeds lately. For some reason my acans are not happy but some acans are very happy. As well as Zoas growing fast. Here is a pic from a while back sold some big colonies recently.

Chris, you got it goin' on, man! Growin' like weeds, and no water changes either. Where is the ceramic at? That looks like some rock in there!
 

neuwave

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I have had a power head connected to a hose that goes behind the rock structure in my display since I set up my tank almost 6 years ago. The hose curves up a few inches off the bottom of the tank behind the rock, is capped off at the end, and has 3 slits 4 inches long pointing to the sides, and upwards. There is no detritus sink behind these rocks! When I set this up I did not know anyone that had ever had a saltwater tank before. It's just common sense that you can't let muck pile up in your tank! The tank would look better without that extra PH in the back corner, but oh well.

Exactly my point ! :)

We all try to eliminate dead spots that collect detritus. So it is possible that porous rock is collecting excess detritus within and behind fouling the water. If we have non-porous rock or minimal porous rock we can reduce the amount of extra powerheads or as DFW suggested pipe running behind the rock structure.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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As I just posted in an identical thread...

While I do not know how much utility the pores in live rock provide, they seemed to have neglected denitrification.

I find their comment below to be rather one sided:

"But let us ask you, have you ever seen or heard of a reef tank with a real ammonia problem? Seriously though, we’ve never walked up to a reef tank and seen animals with symptoms of ammonia or nitrite burn. The case in point is that discussing live rock in terms of its surface area for bacteria is a complete waste of time."

What if, instead, it read:

"But let us ask you, have you ever seen or heard of a reef tank with a real nitrate problem? Seriously though, we’ve never walked up to a reef tank and seen animals with symptoms of elevated nitrate (such as algae). The case in point is that discussing live rock in terms of its surface area for bacteria is a complete waste of time."

That may put it in a slightly different context.
Bear in mind that it is a presentation by someone selling a product.
 

DFW

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Exactly my point ! :)

We all try to eliminate dead spots that collect detritus. So it is possible that porous rock is collecting excess detritus within and behind fouling the water. If we have non-porous rock or minimal porous rock we can reduce the amount of extra powerheads or as DFW suggested pipe running behind the rock structure.

My concern is not, and never was with detritus somehow getting inside of the live rock. My concern is with it laying on the bottom of the tank, and all the other surfaces, porous, or not behind the rock structure. The detritus is not being forced inside of the rock, as best as I can tell, and it can collect on top of any type of rock if there is no flow to keep it in suspension.
 
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Diesel

Diesel

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As I agree on post above made and maybe even more as "where would we be without rock or for that matter live rock"
It's a basic that we can't go without no matter how good equipment is to reduce all kinds of bad stuff in the water.
We improve this hobby more and more by testing new equipment but more we learn from mistakes made by yourself or others.
Yes, this is stated by some one who's selling a product or promoting a product by one of their sponsors.
Nothing wrong with this picture, just to open a fair discussion.
I have to be honest that more often you see reef tanks with less rock but enough to have a natural appearance of a small piece of reef.
Same thing happened to the fresh water hobby.
The Dutch planted tanks are still hot but contest are won by tanks that have the look of a nature scape copied in a way from Amano.
Straight SPS only tanks with only a few nice colonies with a carefully selected under stocked fish population is more visable in this hobby.
Less rock still IMO need to be compensated by something else to have a stable balance.
Let it rolling guys, still mis some important hobbyist to jump in on this topic.
 
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Mike J.

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Recently, after a couple of dives in Aleuthera, Bahamas, I said to my wife, "We'll, I realized one thing, my reef tank sure could use more flow."
 
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