tank crashing......

[Jcr's Reef]

Is it true that all of the pellets are indeed the same? Come from the same source, same machine (scrap excrudings at different sizes), then slapped with a different label on it? Funny how some vendors or reefers talk up WM or ATB's then put down the others if this is indeed true.

I also continued to dose MB7 to help diversify and compete against other bacteria, and never stopped running GFO/Carbon either. I pretty much maintained my regular routine with the addition of pellets. After thinking about it though, what exactly are the pellets adding to the tank, or are they really just culturing bacteria within the reactor? Is the bacteria continuously multiplying/dieing off to reach a happy medium? Is it ever met? Maybe I looked at it differently than most. To me it really doesn't make sense to run pellets 24/7 unless your tank is already experiencing some nutrient issues that you need help with.

 

[Troylee]

Nope I have always ran gfo I changed it a week after the problems arose wandering if my po4 had rose or something...
I truly believe my Hanna checker is garbage but Thats another story lol...

My guess is GFO. How long have you been using GFO? Did you just do a big GFO change? I would guess that STN/RTN started happening a few days after you added a new batch of GFO, correct?

I suggest, you take the GFO offline, and do a 50 percent water change and run more GAC than usual for a few days.

 

[Paul_N]

Is it true that all of the pellets are indeed the same? Come from the same source, same machine (scrap excrudings at different sizes), then slapped with a different label on it? Funny how some vendors or reefers talk up WM or ATB's then put down the others if this is indeed true.

I also continued to dose MB7 to help diversify and compete against other bacteria, and never stopped running GFO/Carbon either. I pretty much maintained my regular routine with the addition of pellets. After thinking about it though, what exactly are the pellets adding to the tank, or are they really just culturing bacteria within the reactor? Is the bacteria continuously multiplying/dieing off to reach a happy medium? Is it ever met? Maybe I looked at it differently than most. To me it really doesn't make sense to run pellets 24/7 unless your tank is already experiencing some nutrient issues that you need help with.

Don't take this the wrong way, and this goes to everyone in this forum. People really need to read up and understand the chemistry before they get into something like pellets, vodka dosing or any dosing for that matter. You should not put something in your tank or try something solely because someone else is doing it(not saying you are). The pellets are nothing more than a carbon source for the bacteria to feed on and therefore multiply. With vodka dosing, which is also a carbon source, the bacteria multiply in the display tank. There was some talk in the past about the bacteria colonizing in the DT being a bad thing. The reactor setup with pellets keeps most of the bacteria in the reactor sump area. The bacteria feed on the pellets along with the excess nutrient and also colonize on the pellets in the reactor. When the bacteria leave the reactor, they are then skimmed out via your protein skimmer also removing the excess nutrients. This is also the reason most people run the output of the reactor right next to the skimmer pump. For me I run my output next to the return pump. I have always been of the opinion that the bacteria in the DT is a good thing and I never had any issues while dosing vodka plus the mulm off of the pellets is good food for the coral. I run a nice size skimmer on my system and have always ran one a tad bigger than needed. I chose Warner Ecobak simply because of the name and reputation and have not been sorry. I have not tried any other pellets. Honestly is you are doing water changes, run gfo and your parameters are spot on, then I don't see the need for these. I went the vodka route and now the pellet route because I don't do water changes and I feed heavily but can still maintain zero nitrates and phosphates in the .03-.05 range and I also have not run gfo in over a year and a half.

 

[nicks387]

Here's the thing, It doesn't matter if everyone on this site said it can't be the pellets. I have been in this hobby many many years and have a full blown 300gallon sps tank. I know what I am doing and I go by what I know and see in "MY" tank. If you google stn with biopellets you will find many many cases like these. I know my params and like I said, I have exhausted every other option at this point and the main problem seems to point to the pellets. These pellets are new and every person should post what they believe to be negative as well as positive so we can better understand them. It could be they react a certain way under certain conditions. It may be that at a certain point you can have too many pellets. I have slowed it down but as I said it has not stopped all the way yet. If it does then I will post it but I know that in 7 years I never ran into an stn issue like this one till I ran the pellets which by the way I have been using since they came out before all of the hype. There are many people on here that will tell you not doing water changes is a bad idea but you know it is working for you then thats what you go by. All you can do is share your info with the community and what they take from it is up to them. Just be aware that some people are having some issues and those people should certainly post about them.
I do not think that for no reason they can wipe out your tank and can not be stopped, but I do believe we may find they can cause issues under certain conditions. Maybe at a certain ph for example. I had a slightly low ph since I run a calcium reactor, at 7.9 to 8.1 in a tank without pellets it was not an issue but in a tank with pellets running alk lower and having low ph is much worse, yet we need lower alk in these systems to stop alk burn so that may be the issue. I added a kalk reactor to raise PH and it has gone up so I will see if it stops the issue and if it does I will post it for sure.

 

[Troylee]

Agreed nick 100% bud.... Nothing has changed in my tank or ro filters etc I have never exp stn on all my years it was all or nothing ime either they thrived or rtn in minutes I have never exp a long slow paced loss such as this I mean I have one colony I didn't decide to chop and were going on day 5 now of the flesh peeling and stopping I swear if I didn't have the pellets I would say it was a disase like I mentioned before.... People will have both good and bad experiences with everything in this hobby I just so happen to have a bad one with the pellets... My tank is thriving man colors are awesome growth is excellent etc... Nothing I can do here but wait it Out and blame the pellets lol.... I haven't changed anything in a year including water besides the pellets....after week one I lost a piece and thought hmmmm pellets???? Nah it was just one of those things you lose a piece here and there and that's life what I did do was back off from adding more for like 3 weeks everything was fine then I added more.... A couple weeks went by lost another piece and write it off as just one of those things again then last week....arrrrr my tank went down hill it's a slow down hill struggle and I'm losing a single piece a day it's so wierd I mean I didn't wake up to 6 dead corals I woke up to 1 I removed it the next day 1 next day 1 next day 1 etc etc etc.... Very frustrating but I truly believe deep down inside the pellets are at fault.... I have gotten numerous pms and phone calls from vendors and hobbyist alike that exp just this thang!!!! Why they haven't spoke up is beyond me and why not share it here I have no clue either maybe there ashamed of the
Losses I don't know.... I'm here to help and learn like the rest of ya rather it's good or bad!!!! This time just seems to be a down hill moment sorry.....

 

[Jcr's Reef]

Don't take this the wrong way, and this goes to everyone in this forum. People really need to read up and understand the chemistry before they get into something like pellets, vodka dosing or any dosing for that matter. You should not put something in your tank or try something solely because someone else is doing it(not saying you are). The pellets are nothing more than a carbon source for the bacteria to feed on and therefore multiply. With vodka dosing, which is also a carbon source, the bacteria multiply in the display tank. There was some talk in the past about the bacteria colonizing in the DT being a bad thing. The reactor setup with pellets keeps most of the bacteria in the reactor sump area. The bacteria feed on the pellets along with the excess nutrient and also colonize on the pellets in the reactor. When the bacteria leave the reactor, they are then skimmed out via your protein skimmer also removing the excess nutrients. This is also the reason most people run the output of the reactor right next to the skimmer pump. For me I run my output next to the return pump. I have always been of the opinion that the bacteria in the DT is a good thing and I never had any issues while dosing vodka plus the mulm off of the pellets is good food for the coral. I run a nice size skimmer on my system and have always ran one a tad bigger than needed. I chose Warner Ecobak simply because of the name and reputation and have not been sorry. I have not tried any other pellets. Honestly is you are doing water changes, run gfo and your parameters are spot on, then I don't see the need for these. I went the vodka route and now the pellet route because I don't do water changes and I feed heavily but can still maintain zero nitrates and phosphates in the .03-.05 range and I also have not run gfo in over a year and a half.

No worries Paul. I've run both (vodka & pellets), but I'm much happier with the vodka dosing bc I can add manually as my tank needs its. Running a mixed reef, my coral tends to suffer once I reach ULN, so thats not what I want. I too never ran the output next to the skimmer. I ran the reactor into a 40g long (refugium) with sand and liverock that then ran into my sump with the skimmer. It worked well, but I only ran it for about 4 weeks until I pulled it off. I didn't want to experience the negative effects of pellets

 

[nicks387]

I have had the same exact thing happen, I have an acro thats 18 inches across that looks in perfect health and has been slowly losing tissue for a month now. I can't stop it. I have never not been able to stop an stn issue before within a few days. Its just random pieces will start to stn and keep going till they are gone. While others are thriving. When it starts on a colony it doesnt stop till it takes it out. You know your tank, and when something is wrong you have a good idea what it is and if you dont you start eliminating any cause till you find out. I did that and am left with just the pellets. I didn't post it at first because I know everyone is hyped about them, including myself because they do work well, however if this is the end result it needs to be posted. When you said people may not be posting about it, I stepped forward to share my story too. I have not yet given up and if it stops I will post it like I said.

Dude, My Ponape Torch spawned a few weeks ago, two days later it was receding.......

 

[Reggie]

Just a thought, have you checked for stray electricity?
Reef Addicts - How to Test for Stray Electricity

 

[nicks387]

Yes, I did check for stray electricity. 0 readings.

 

[turbo21]

Just backing up what Nick said here is the google search Google

Troy.

Do you think your system has gone past the UNLS to maybe a sytem with no nutrients. I mean we all try to get everything as low as possible, but maybe you went over the edge with the pellets? Maybe dose some MB7 to get some more nutrients into the system and add some extra feedings?

Could this also be a long term effect from dosing the peroxide for dino's? The reason i found R2R was because of your peroxide experiment, and it also helped me get rid of my dino problem

Bob

 

[Troylee]

nope i have algae growth so i find that impossible because of it..... my tank has turf algae, bubble algae, and now cyano after cleaning it..... to much nutrients if anything....

 

[Paul_N]

Just backing up what Nick said here is the google search Google

Troy.

Do you think your system has gone past the UNLS to maybe a sytem with no nutrients. I mean we all try to get everything as low as possible, but maybe you went over the edge with the pellets? Maybe dose some MB7 to get some more nutrients into the system and add some extra feedings?

Could this also be a long term effect from dosing the peroxide for dino's? The reason i found R2R was because of your peroxide experiment, and it also helped me get rid of my dino problem

Bob

Try that with vodka dosing and you get the same thing.

Also a good point on the peroxide. This is what I was referring to as too many changes and additions to a system.

Lee - have you had your phosphates tested by something other than the checker to verify your phosphate levels?

 

[Troylee]

no i have a api test kit but we know there junk so i really cant do anything else...

 

[turbo21]

Try that with vodka dosing and you get the same thing.

Also a good point on the peroxide. This is what I was referring to as too many changes and additions to a system.

Lee - have you had your phosphates tested by something other than the checker to verify your phosphate levels?

I agree with your point on the vodka dosing. Have bio-pellets really been long term tested to make sure they are not doing something in the water. It seems like vodka dosing came into the scene and everyone came out with their bio-pellets pretty quickly after that.

 

[Paul_N]

no i have a api test kit but we know there junk so i really cant do anything else...

You really need to confirm your phosphate levels before you do anything else. With the turf, bubble and also cyano you have some kind of nutrient issue going on. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the peroxide kill bacteria? If so you could have been counteracting the pellets with continual dosing and with no water changes creating a nutrient problem. You should get a good phosphate meter or high end kit before you start anything back up.

 

[turbo21]

Here is something i found posted by Randy Farley discussing what peroxide does in a tank. Seeing as how it increases the oxidation of metals, have you checked any of your impeller shafts (if any are metal) to see if they are rusting. There was a guy local in pittsburgh who had a frag rack that had magnets that started rusting and his tank crashed because of stn. Just a shot in the dark. Paul, you probably know Ray Nist

There are many effects of hydrogen peroxide, not all of which are positive. It impacts the availability and oxidation state of metals like copper and iron (potentially for the better or worse, depending on the metal and its concentration).

here's an example relating to a coral and decreased growth:

The synergistic effects of hydrogen peroxide and elevated seawater temperature on the metabolic activity of the coral Galaxea fascicularis
Tomihiko Higuchi, Hiroyuki Fujimura, Takemitsu Arakaki, and Tamotsu Oomori
Journal Marine Biology
Publisher Springer Berlin / Heidelberg
ISSN 0025-3162 (Print) 1432-1793 (Online)
Issue Volume 156, Number 4 / March, 2009

Abstract We examined quantitative changes in the metabolism of the coral Galaxea fascicularis caused by increases in both hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) concentration and seawater temperature. Seawater temperatures were maintained at 27 or 31°C in a well-controlled incubation chamber, and three levels of H2O2 concentration (0, 0.3, 3.0 μM) were used in experimental treatments. Gross primary production, calcification rates and respiration rates were all affected by increased H2O2 concentrations and high seawater temperatures. Individual treatments of high H2O2 or elevated seawater temperature alone caused significant declines in coral photosynthesis and calcification rates within the 3-day incubation period. The synergistic effect of high H2O2 combined with high seawater temperature resulted in a 134% increase in respiration rates, which surpassed the effect of either H2O2 or high seawater temperature alone. Our results suggest that both high H2O2 concentrations and elevated temperatures in seawater can strongly affect coral metabolism; however, these effects cannot be estimated by simply summing the effects of individual stress parameters.

 

[Paul_N]

I agree with your point on the vodka dosing. Have bio-pellets really been long term tested to make sure they are not doing something in the water. It seems like vodka dosing came into the scene and everyone came out with their bio-pellets pretty quickly after that.

I waited for like the third product (EcoBak) before I jumped in. They tested theirs before they released them for like a year I think. Vodka has been around for some time actually. I just stopped June of last year but had been dosing for 2.5 five years and that was after following a couple threads where people were dosing for almost 2 years or so. I have stated in other threads that I will consider the EcoBak a success for me if I am still running them for at least a year with no issues.

 

[DML08]

Dang TL sorry to hear about this.. I know how you feel man, I lost all my big colonies when I did my tank transfer.. sucks man..

 

[Paul_N]

Here is something i found posted by Randy Farley discussing what peroxide does in a tank. Seeing as how it increases the oxidation of metals, have you checked any of your impeller shafts (if any are metal) to see if they are rusting. There was a guy local in pittsburgh who had a frag rack that had magnets that started rusting and his tank crashed because of stn. Just a shot in the dark. Paul, you probably know Ray Nist

There are many effects of hydrogen peroxide, not all of which are positive. It impacts the availability and oxidation state of metals like copper and iron (potentially for the better or worse, depending on the metal and its concentration).

here's an example relating to a coral and decreased growth:

The synergistic effects of hydrogen peroxide and elevated seawater temperature on the metabolic activity of the coral Galaxea fascicularis
Tomihiko Higuchi, Hiroyuki Fujimura, Takemitsu Arakaki, and Tamotsu Oomori
Journal Marine Biology
Publisher Springer Berlin / Heidelberg
ISSN 0025-3162 (Print) 1432-1793 (Online)
Issue Volume 156, Number 4 / March, 2009

Abstract We examined quantitative changes in the metabolism of the coral Galaxea fascicularis caused by increases in both hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) concentration and seawater temperature. Seawater temperatures were maintained at 27 or 31°C in a well-controlled incubation chamber, and three levels of H2O2 concentration (0, 0.3, 3.0 μM) were used in experimental treatments. Gross primary production, calcification rates and respiration rates were all affected by increased H2O2 concentrations and high seawater temperatures. Individual treatments of high H2O2 or elevated seawater temperature alone caused significant declines in coral photosynthesis and calcification rates within the 3-day incubation period. The synergistic effect of high H2O2 combined with high seawater temperature resulted in a 134% increase in respiration rates, which surpassed the effect of either H2O2 or high seawater temperature alone. Our results suggest that both high H2O2 concentrations and elevated temperatures in seawater can strongly affect coral metabolism; however, these effects cannot be estimated by simply summing the effects of individual stress parameters.

Yea I remember Ray having those issues. I actually had the same magnets(group buy with him) in my tank with the same issues. But that was my fault since I did not coat the magnets on my frag rack. I caught mine fairly quick and pulled them out. He lost a great deal of his sps.

 

[Troylee]

I'm not sure where this whole peroxide thing came from??? That was months before any of this including the pellets what ever result they had would have been detrimental back then not 7 months later.... Don't ya think???

You really need to confirm your phosphate levels before you do anything else. With the turf, bubble and also cyano you have some kind of nutrient issue going on. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the peroxide kill bacteria? If so you could have been counteracting the pellets with continual dosing and with no water changes creating a nutrient problem. You should get a good phosphate meter or high end kit before you start anything back up.