Ready to Give up - Dosing problems

Bernardhny · Apr 1, 2014

To say that I write this with the utmost level of frustration is an understatement. I started dosing almost a month ago and I have had nothing but problems. I can't explain why my water chemistry is so off and I am so frustrated that I am literally at the point of shutting down the tank and giving up.

I have a 55g square with a 10g sump. My problem has always been keeping the ph at a steady number higher than 7.8 (goal of 8.2). What I found in my attempt to get this problem solved is that my Alkalinity is way too low. It hovers around 115-130ppm (6.44) My goal is to keep it around 195ppm (~11). My calcium hovers around 430 and I do a 10G water change every friday night.

My dosing is simple. Calcium runs at 15 minutes (BRS Calcium mix) for a total dosing of 16.5ml each day. The alkalinity on the other hand is running 111ml per day and no matter what my alk stays low. My magnesium is reporting very low. I use the red sea pro kit and when I get done dropping the tritation liquid into the bottle I am at .1 ml left. Meaning I drop .9ml into the jar before it turns blue. Scary....So my challenge I believe is to get my Magnesium to a normal level (My goal is 1350). Assuming that my Magnesium is actually at ~500ppm that means I need to dump 150 fluid ounces into my tank. Of course, that is way too much for a single dose, and frankly the recommended max dose I keep seeing is 100ml per day. 150 fluid ounces is like 4400ml which means at 100ML per day it will take me 44 days at the max dosage to raise the magnesium to the recommended level (common sense says that is not possible and that these numbers are crazy).

Add to the fact that my salinity is going UP when I try to corrective doses. Even adding 100ML of Magnesium and doing the dosing I am doing of calc and alk my salt keeps going from 1.026 to 1.031. Last night I noticed this again and did a 15G water change (using Red Sea Coral Pro) and figured that hell, with a 15G water change the simple fact that I am changing this much water will raise the Magnesium, Calcium and Alk to high levels. So after doing so, my Salinity was back to 1.026. Tonight, I go and do the chemistry all over again. Alk is down again to 115ppm, Calcium is 600+ and Magnesium is still running at .1 left out of 1.0 ml on the tritration test (I did each test 3 freaking times with the same bloody results).

So my salt is high, my alk is low, my calcium is high and my mag seems low. At first I thought I was reading the magnesium test wrong so I went to my LFS and they showed me how to do it. 2ML of water in the jar, 5 drops part A with 15 seconds of shaking the jar between drops. 5 Drops of Part B, wait 60 seconds, and then drip by drip of the last chemical until the water turns blue. Whatever number is remaining of the liquid in the 1.0ml syringe is the number on the chart

I need to figure out how to get my numbers in range. I am exhausted and fed up, clearly I am just not doing something correctly. I have made sure my dosing pumps are dosing correctly, both in time and material dispensed. I have run the tests over and over again using multiple kits, I get the same results. Now I am faced with doing another 15g water change to get my salt back up to snuff, but in doing so resets my effort in determining how much dosing I should do.

Bernard

mcarroll · Apr 1, 2014

If you can't get more comfortable with your test kits - which means performing the tests consistently from step to step and getting consistent results - then your dosing may never add up correctly.

Try testing the same sample of water three times with each of your test kits and make sure you can get reasonably consistent results.

Measure the output of your doser with a stopwatch and measuring cup to make sure all heads are delivering what you think they are.

Also, try testing immediately before and after dosing to make sure your doses are actually the potency you think they are.

Also, if Mg is actually low, you can definitely expect skewed Ca and alk test results.

-Matt

P.S. It's true that stony corals and dosing are not for everyone. Maybe consider keeping your coral population low enough that water changes take care of everything?

Bernardhny · Apr 3, 2014

Update: last night I came home to a ton of precipitation on the glass. Thick white sheet. After scraping it all off I did a 20g water change and tested the dosing pumps and timers. Everything checked out fine. Before doing the change I tested the alkalinity and it was at 115 ppm . After the water change it was back to 166 ppm. I left the doses off, but mixed a new batch of alk, cal, and magnesium.

My plan is to not dose any chemicals for the rest of the week and see if I can stabilize the water recalculating the consumption of calcium and alkalinity before dosing again.

Zero Nitrates · Apr 3, 2014

I have noticed some of the things you have. My salt creeps up with dosing too. Sounds like you are doing everything right. Just keep up with your husbandry and things will settle down. You will find a balance. Try to make changes slowly.

mcarroll · Apr 3, 2014

If your tank precipitated like that (first time?) then something - most likely alkalinity - got dosed way too strong and/or way too fast.

I goofed with my dosing once (differently) and had this happen....very difficult to get things balanced again after that. Hopefully you have an easier time than I did. I had to re scrape the tank about every day for a while. (Check my threads.)

Do lots of water changes and no dosing until things get back on track.

Also try the suggestions in my first post to see if you can figure out what's really going on.
Last, read up on tank precipitation so you can understand what's happened better.

-Matt

nivram · Apr 3, 2014

Do you adjust your wAter change water to the parameters you want in your tank?

Just a couple suggestions:

Get your Mg level correct first.
Check your test kit expiration dates.
You skimmer can also affect salinity if you run one. Do you have a lot of corals now?

I actually used to add my magnesium dosage to my auto top off. If you run a kalk reactor off your ato or add kalk to your ato. Do not do this.

Bradsreeeftank · Apr 3, 2014

Stop dosing! You dont need to dose to have your tank successful, that why they invented the word water change :laugh:. I tried dosing to, nothing but stress and problems. You half to test like every day to be sure something wasn't overdose. Just a pain. Do water-changes and you'll have good parameters.

beaslbob · Apr 3, 2014

add macro algaes to get the pH up. and measure that just before lights out.

then addd baking soda to get kh up to 8-10 or so.

I think you will find you have a pH well above 8.2 with a minimum nightly drop. Actually the nightly drop is not as important as getting the pH up with the algaes IME.

Mike in CT · Apr 4, 2014

There are lots of successful tanks whose ph is 7.8. Stability is the key.

Bernardhny · Apr 4, 2014

I left the tank alone yesterday but I did do more equipment testing. The dosing pumps and timers checked out perfectly. It is dosing 1.1 ml per minute and the timers are starting and stopping at the right times.

I find that in my tank I get better coral growth and extension at 8.2 with a noticeable change at 7.8. Call me crazy but everything looks better.

I have tested the water chemistry 2 times each and I get similar results. I find myself getting confused on the magnesium test kit because everyone included the manufacturer has given me mixed directions. It comes down to the final reading. I start with 1.0 of the chemical in the syringe and if it goes down to .3 when the solution goes to blue then I have been told by Red Sea that my number is 3 and my mag is low, I have also been told that if I am down to .3 then I take 1.0 - .3 and I am at .7. That is a huge difference in magnesium levels. Go to you tube and you will also see contradicting tutorials. So what is it? .3 or .7?

My goal is to get my chemistry right and then measure consumption after 24 hours. If I want stability then I like the idea of dosing but only if it produces stability instead of chaos.

sromero287 · Apr 4, 2014

Had exactly the same problem, like you telling my tank history, simple words:
1- Turn off the dosing pumps(imagine u dont have them)
2-Try a different brand of chemicals, i love Natureef(number 1 in Fl)
3-Do a 30-40% water change (if possible natural sea water)
4-Buy a bnib test kit (salifert or Red Sea Max) check param then wright them down
5-Based on your values start adding slow the new ones, allow at least one hour and test again.
D O N E ! ! !

The PH at 7.8 is not that bad, mine never got up from 8.1 and i have at least 35-40 corals in between sps and Lps, cheers up u can do it!!!!!!!!

mcarroll · Apr 4, 2014

The testing processes for Ca alk and Mg kits are usually similar..

The quantity of titrant (titrator?) USED is proportional to your mineral level.

More used = Higher mineral level

If you said what brand the kit is, I missed it. Would like to look at their directions.

-Matt

b_rad_G · Apr 4, 2014

Bernardhny said:
So my salt is high, my alk is low, my calcium is high and my mag seems low. At first I thought I was reading the magnesium test wrong so I went to my LFS and they showed me how to do it. 2ML of water in the jar, 5 drops part A with 15 seconds of shaking the jar between drops. 5 Drops of Part B, wait 60 seconds, and then drip by drip of the last chemical until the water turns blue. Whatever number is remaining of the liquid in the 1.0ml syringe is the number on the chart

Bernard

I don't think this is right. I am almost positive it is completely backwards. The number on the chart should be the amount used not the amount left. If it takes 9ml of fluid then you would read the card at 9 not 1. That is a huge difference and a huge problem! one of us is doing it wrong haha

Paul B · Apr 4, 2014

I have a 55g square with a 10g sump. My problem has always been keeping the ph at a steady number higher than 7.8 (goal of 8.2). What I found in my attempt to get this problem solved is that my Alkalinity is way too low. It hovers around 115-130ppm (6.44) My goal is to keep it around 195ppm (~11). My calcium hovers around 430 and I do a 10G water change every friday night.

There is such a simple answer for you. Find a nice clean place in your garbage can and place all those test kits in there. Then forget about them. Everything you learned about pH, forget it. Forget that your calcium is hovering anywhere and that you ever heard the term "Alk".

I have been doing this for 60 years and have a very old reef tank, much older than most of the members on here and I have never, not once had to alter, test or change my pH. Not once. Alk either.
I have no test kits except a thermometer that was used in a commercial hot water boiler. I also use a $4.00 swing arm hydrometer and almost all my fish are spawning including the 22 year olds. My reef has SPS, LPS and all sort of abreviations.
Salt water is very stable and nothing is needed for it except some calcium and alk. (as long as you don't mess with it). For that I add driveway ice melter and regular 60 cent baking soda right out of the box. I don't test it but if you like, being that you are going to throw out your test kits, you can bring a sample of your water to a LFS like once a year and adjust it if you like. If you add to much calcium, it will clump on the bottom and your hermit crabs may look at you funny, but that's about it.
I know you won't listen to what I say, so good luck.

Bernardhny · Apr 4, 2014

I am listening. You said throw out my kits. Forget about alk. But then you said to add ice melt and baking soda. How much for a 55g tank with 10g sump. Without test kits how will I know? How often? Again how will I know.

I will listen to all advice, 60 years of experience is great but technology changes. Imagine that you needed a bypass. I think your heart would be pretty ****** if you had to go back 60 years in tech and procedure would you?

StikHedRon · Apr 4, 2014

Do not add ice melt or baking soda to your tank unless you know what your doing and have done your research on how to properly add those chemicals to your tank. The magnesium test from red sea is based on how much titration you have used. So if you start at 1ml and you end at .3 ml you have added .7ml and that is what you need to reference on your sheet in the redsea test kit. .7ml added titration. That should be around 1500? I believe .8ml is 1600 if my memory serves me correct. Do not throw away your test kits either. You need those things! I would test your salt mix and find out what the parameters mix upto? This hasn't been stated yet, what type of Salt are you using? What type of coral do you have in your tank that would consume so much alk, cal and mag? If you have mainly corals that don't need alot of alk or calcium, then we are making some ground. Don't bother with ph yet till you get your tank where you want it then tinker some. Once you find what parameters your salt mixes upto and you start doing daily 5gal water changes your parameters in the tank should stable out to what your salt mix is as long as you don't have a high demand for alk, cal... then you can begin adjusting, but you have to find that baseline first and don't fret over ph at this time, first things first!

Bernardhny · Apr 4, 2014

Let me start off by saying I am not about to start dumping ice melt or baking soda in my tank.

I am using Coral Sea Reef Pro salt. It mixes to 225 ppm (12.5) alk, 430 calcium and 1250 mag (I have to retest mag for accuracy). Coral in my tank : leather, pulsing xenia, various zoas, bubble coral, plate coral, hammer coral, gorgonian, frogspawn, polyps, mushrooms, open and closed brain coral. Oh and two montiporas.

Paul B · Apr 4, 2014

I will listen to all advice, 60 years of experience is great but technology changes.

LOL. Yes it does, but I have not been in a coma for the last 60 years. I have used all the test kits as they invented them and like you, I had problems dosing as I was here when all that was invented.

Imagine that you needed a bypass. I think your heart would be pretty ****** if you had to go back 60 years in tech and procedure would you?

That may be true, but if I needed a heart bypass would I want one from someone who got out of medical school on Tuesday or a guy who has been doing it for 43 years and his patients are all still alive and living long enough to die of old age?My last sentence was that I realize you will not listen to me, and that is fine. I am not here to force anyone to do anything. But remember, my reef is the oldest reef on here or any forum you are likely to go on so although my methods can not possibly work, I am not senile yet.. Close, but not yet. I did not invent the ice melter thing. That was Randy who is a renound chemist on many forums and his advice is relatively new. Calcium that you buy in a LFS for quite a bit of money is drive way ice melter and expensive alk in a can is baking soda.As I said before. good luck. I hope everything works out for you. Have a great day. :thumb:

kpiotrowski · Apr 4, 2014

I've used brs alk,ca, and mg for 3 years growing sps. baking soda and drive way de-icer, dolmite all fine if you do your research.

I've kinda got Paul's back as far as him telling you get back to basics. You aint paul, don't have his experince or his tank. and I'm going to differ with him by saying after you are back to basics then the first thing to concern yourself with is alk, NOT ph 9 at this point anyway) . stable alk is the first important thing not only in reef, and fowlr but even freshwater.

make sure you are using a salt mix like reef crystals that has the same values of ca,alk, and mg that you are testing for otherwise your water changes will lower you values.

I would start doing weeking 10 to 20g water changes to get your sytem back on track. stop dosing. and start getting comfortable with test kits starting will alk. test alk just before your weekly water change and go to brs and use thier calculator to figure your tanks usage. now you will have a weekly usage, dived by 7 days and have you daily usage.

Take a deep breath. by reading what you have wrote thus far I can tell you are fully capable of getting this down!