Why do Reefers Dose?

[NanaReefer]

Things like Vodka, Vinegar and MB7?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Vodka and vinegar are dosed to drive bacterial growth.

The growth of those bacteria:

1. Uses up nutrients (nitrate and phosphate)
2. Some of the bacteria can be skimmed out to export the nutrients
3. Some of the bacteria may be a suitable food for many filter feeders, such as sponges.

As to MB7, I personally wouldn't use it. It claims to contain lots of different bacteria, and those bacteria will speed up cycling, denitrification, and various other processes. It also claims to add enzymes, but I'm not sure if it isn't just counting enzymes in or on the bacteria (they have a habit of being somewhat misleading that way).

In any case, unless dosing organics causes cyano, there are plenty of naturally present bacteria. It could possible speed up cycling a new tank.

 

[Paul B]

Things like Vodka, Vinegar and MB7?​

Some people have nothing to do and feel anything they do is good. I feel it is a waste of time.

 

[Triggreef]

I use a denitrator instead of a skimmer. So I dose vinegar. Not a waste of time for me, the denitrator wouldn't work too well without it. Then I would be stuck using a skimmer like everyone else. Lol

 

[cdness]

Never used MB7. However I have tried the Vodka and vinegar dosing. After trying it, I will leave the vodka to drinking and the vinegar to cleaning pumps... I never saw the benefits but experienced the downfalls of carbon dosing. I guess it is just not for me.

With that said though, I have seen many great tanks that do use these for dosing. I also have seen awesome skimmerless tanks maintained solely by water changes. Just proves there is more than one way to be successful...

 

[NanaReefer]

I was wondering as I'm forever reading one thing or another about those dosing one or the other-lol. 5yrs reefing and I've never understood it.
Doesn't bacteria grow without all the dosing help? Doesn't changing your water remove excess nutrients?
I've always tried to keep things all tank related as simple as possible. But am I getting all that I can from my corals without the extra stuff?

 

[Reefing Madness]

Some people have nothing to do and feel anything they do is good. I feel it is a waste of time.

I dont understand this. Why is it a waste of time? I dont spend a small fortune on water changes. This is not a waste of time, its proven to work, and work very well, even in sps systems. Ive been at dosing for years now, and cant say I have a complaint one about it. But saying its a waste of time is a bit rash imo.

 

[Paul B]

But saying its a waste of time is a bit rash imo.

You are correct. I should have said that "in my opinion" dosing vodka and vinegar is a waste of time. :hat:

I also don't know what MB7 is

 

[DRThompson]

I dont understand this. Why is it a waste of time? I dont spend a small fortune on water changes. This is not a waste of time, its proven to work, and work very well, even in sps systems. Ive been at dosing for years now, and cant say I have a complaint one about it. But saying its a waste of time is a bit rash imo.

 

[cope413]

You are correct. I should have said that "in my opinion" dosing vodka and vinegar is a waste of time.

Since she asked "why" people dose, I'm not really sure what your opinion that "it's a waste of time" has to do with anything.

If you want to elaborate as to why you don't dose, that may be helpful. Otherwise, your opining doesn't really help. I'm a big fan of your methodology, Paul, but sometimes your responses like the one above come off condescending and arrogant - and I'm fairly sure you aren't intending that.

Nana, the reason people dose is because their tanks are not at optimum levels of whatever it is they are measuring or looking at.

Some people, like Randy, like to experiment. When you understand the chemistry the way Randy does, there's not a whole lot of risk with experimentation, but there could be a fairly significant reward.

With a tank like your 40B, chances are you don't need to dose anything if you stay up with WC. If, however, you were to stock your tank with 100 frags of SPS, you would likely be unable to keep up with the chemical demands with water changes. Thus, you would look at options for dosing/maintaining Alk and Cal.

If you notice that your nitrate and/or phosphate is higher than you'd like, and you've checked your feeding amounts, lighting schedule, and any other relevant factors to no avail, dosing something like vinegar is a proven way to help with that.

There's no magic supplement or panacea for all reef ailments, and there are typically multiple ways to deal with (whether it's a supplement or piece of equipment) issues in your reef, but if you have something that's an issue and would like to try dosing a supplement, there are many resources here that can direct you accordingly.

I'm a big fan of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" when it comes to my tank. So if you're happy with your tank and don't have any issues you'd like to address, I'd personally recommend keeping up with your normal husbandry practices and saving your time/money/effort for when problems do arise.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was wondering as I'm forever reading one thing or another about those dosing one or the other-lol. 5yrs reefing and I've never understood it.
Doesn't bacteria grow without all the dosing help? Doesn't changing your water remove excess nutrients?
I've always tried to keep things all tank related as simple as possible. But am I getting all that I can from my corals without the extra stuff?

Some types of bacteria grow, but the types driven by vinegar and vodka additions do not.

Almost no one can maintain nutrients adequately low with water changes alone, and is not, in fact, why I recommend doing water changes.

 

[hart24601]

I saw a dramatic increase in the health and growth of filter feeders after I starting using vodka. I dose now to feed them! It's nice to have a food that decreases nitrate and phosphate rather than increase it.

 

[Paul B]

but sometimes your responses like the one above come off condescending and arrogant - and I'm fairly sure you aren't intending that.

It seems you are also correct and I don't mean to come off as condescending. I am not a condescending type of person. My wife often tells me that sometimes I sound like that. I gave my opinion because everything on these fish forums is an opinion but my opinion here probably didn't help. As to why I don't dose vinnegar and vodka and how I formed that opinion it comes from decades of running a tank with no need to use those two chemicals. I do however add calcium and baking soda. I feel that the bacteria in a normally runing, healthy reef tank has no need for alcohol or an acid such as vinnegar. They are not natural to a reef. I feel that the bacteria should control nitrates on their own and from my experience every time I tried something un natural such as vodka and vinnegar (which I have tried) or kalk or bio pellets it was a roller coaster trying to keep everything together by tweeking the parameters to get them where they would be by themselves with no help from me. I rarely test but the once or twice a year I get my water tested the parameters are IMO fine. My nitrates would be considered high but I want them right where they are as they show no detriment to coral growth. My bacteria seem to know exactly what to do on their own as long as I don't screw it up with vodka or vinnegar. If you read the threads where the parameters are all screwed up the majority of them use either one of those chemicals I mentioned. IMO again, sea water is very stable as long as we don't artificially try to change some of it's charactics. But of course this is all just my opinion, but my opinion took many years to form and I didn't come up with this last tuesday. Yes I know that sounds condescing, it even sounds condescending to me but I am old and don't have the elequant vocabulary of many of the members here so it is what it is and I hope I didn't condescend to anyone. Except Randy of course as he already thinks I am nuts. :twitch:

PS Cope413, thank you for pointing out my condescending tone of voice. I will try to re phraise my opinions so they sound better. :biggrin1:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd just add that while the amount of acetate added with vinegar dosing is much higher than in NSW, it turns out that acetate is a big part of the organic cycling that takes place in the ocean and in sediments.

IIRC, it comprised nearly half of the organic carbon cycled when it was measured.

So calling it unnatural only applies to the amount used, not the nature of the chemical itself, or the processes it is involved in..

 

[Tamberav]

Things like Vodka, Vinegar and MB7?

I have biopellets on 1 tank and I dose Vodka to my other tank.

I basically dose so I can feed lots and lots of food to encourage filter feeders.

 

[NanaReefer]

Some types of bacteria grow, but the types driven by vinegar and vodka additions do not.

Almost no one can maintain nutrients adequately low with water changes alone, and is not, in fact, why I recommend doing water changes.

Randy am I understanding you correctly, You DO NOT recommend water changes? Or water changes as a way to controlling nutrients by removal?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy am I understanding you correctly, You DO NOT recommend water changes? Or water changes as a way to controlling nutrients by removal?

I do them (1% daily) and recommend them in most situations. I just think the reasons for doing them are not completely, or even primarily, to keep nitrate and phosphate low, since there are better ways to accomplish that.

 

[NanaReefer]

I do them (1% daily) and recommend them in most situations. I just think the reasons for doing them are not completely, or even primarily, to keep nitrate and phosphate low, since there are better ways to accomplish that.

I just got done reading your build thread. Now I understand

 

[Gwitness]

What is less likely to have a huge overdose on... Dosing vodka or running bio pellets? Does bio pellets take out nitrates and phosphates?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What is less likely to have a huge overdose on... Dosing vodka or running bio pellets? Does bio pellets take out nitrates and phosphates?

A bit of a tricky question.

If you mean accidental overdose, I'd say a liquid of any sort is more likely to have an accidental overdose since it happens so fast and is irreversible.

But it is easier to quickly adjust the dose of a liquid you add than the pellets.

FWIW, I've been dosing vinegar for years, both manually and automatically with a dosing pump, and I've never had an accidental overdose.


All forms of organic carbon dosing must reduce both nitrate and phosphate. But there are mechanisms involved where the amount of nitrate used could be significantly higher than the amount of phosphate (even higher than the proportionally higher amount of N than P in tissues) because in low O2 environments, bacteria may use nitrate as a source of oxygen (i.e., as the electron acceptor of respiration) and not just as a source of N for their tissues. Phosphate cannot be used in a similar way, hence the common observation that such methods reduce nitrate more than phosphate.