Crazy Weird Po4 issue - insight needed

afamousjohnson

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Randy - I am having a very weird issue with my po4 at the moment in my system. Was hoping you could give an idea and or next step. My biggest confusion here is the changing #

1st system overview
90g - 35g sump - 5g fuge - 20g frag tank(all tied in) probably 120g or so total water volume for system
system has been up for 2 1/2 years and always ran .03 or so po4 (mixed reef sps heavy)
euro reef skimmer - cal rx - gfo reactor - carbon reactor
5g a week wc - also change out sock
hanna meter testing - ro/di unit - reef crystals salt

situation overview
my situation has taken place over a week and a 1/2 span of time. My normal po4 running .03 jumped up to 1.45 within a 72hr period. Here are the actions leading up to this event.
The cause I have put my finger on to blame is this. I had recieved a reef putty stick(the dark one that looks coraline in tank) from a friend. It was new in case and wrapped. He said it was quite a few months old tho. I thought nothing of it, and have used the red putty stick in attaching rock and coral many times before. I had a lot of new attachments needed as I have been out of putty for a bit. Over about 24hrs I had used up a good 1/3-1/2 the stick. Within 24hrs of this I could tell something was up. This was on 9/25

I had put in new gfo and carbon on 9/6 but as I wanted more clear water this round I ran 1/2 carbon 1/2 gfo in the gfo reactor along with the normal carbon reactor to bump up the amount of carbon for the month but also cutting my gfo reg in 1/2. I have been having an issue keeping my mag up so when I noticed the putty issue I took in a water sample to be tested. it was low around 1250 - they offered a po4 test so I said why not. It instantly went blue(hanna meter) and upon reading was 1.65. This was on 9/26 and I had checked my po4 2 weeks prior to this at home and it read .03. I went home and did a cross check test with my meter and sure enough I got a 1.45 reading. I did a 10% wc to start things off. Due to work it wasn't until 9/29 I was able to take action after a reading of 2.03. I than changed out my carbon and gfo and added double my normal gfo amount which brought it to right under 2 cups of gfo in the reactor. Along with a 10g wc.

Questioning the putty in this event I ran a test on it and added a putty sample to a 500ml water specimen container. The water before adding was tested and read .03. Within 45min after adding the putty the new test read .25. waited 1 day and the test held and read .24.

Now to the weird part.lol During this entire time line I have been experiencing diatom blooms and red slime obviously and know that plays a part in flucuiating #'s on my po4. Not super crazy crazy out breaks but enough to stop and go yuk in spots all over sand and a few up high.(I have killer flow in tank) Here are my #'s from start of event to today
9/26 1st sight po4 at 1.45 (day and 1/2 after using putty)
9/27 10% wc
9/29 2.03 changed carbon-add 1cup changed gfo- added 1 2/3 cups 10g wc
9/30 .37
10/1 1.25
10/2 .34 10g wc
10/3 .5 5g wc
10/4 1.48

A couple other things -
My prize fish died on 9/30 or 10/1 during all this - cant remember the day but he was well intact when I found him except for the puffy white eyes(which were still there) and the blown out stomach area. so I am guessing it hadnt been long after that I found him. Have many nassarius that would devour him with the over night chance - wonder if he nipped some of the putty as he was the only fish affected and all are healthy. seeing the blown out stomach area had me in question. po4 issue had started b4 this
I am a light feeder but have been hitting it a bit heavier lately looking to inturn feed some corals in my LNS

I have tested my make up water as I also questioned my salt. Tests came out fine on po4 and above in most departments. RO is running 003 at the moment.

This last month I have changed the way I do wchanges
used to add to last chamber in sump(return) while pulling from 1st chamber(overflow) at the same time. This would throw debrise into the dt due to adding water to that chamber.
I now add the 5g water to my 1st chamber and let it circulate for 1/2hr or so within the system and than pull out water back down to my normal levels out of the same chamber
(think this is a better way to do it)

Have been having light issues with a finicky ballast on the MH but no biggie here I would think for the situation. New bulbs - just dont fire every day until I mess with it.

Had issue with cal rx on 10/2 - took appart cleaned and rinsed media - added some new. Figured out my ph probe in the reactor had become uncalibrated and made the dreaded milk shake effect within the reactor in case that would play a part in this. This issue has been resolved.

levels
alk runs high 7 - to low 8 (7.9-8.3)
cal runs in the 400 range
SG 1.025
mag 1250-1300
ph daily swing in ranges 7.9-8.2 8.0-8.3 ( was having weird ph issues a while back tho dropping low to 7.6-7.7)
temp swings 78-80

I have been able to remove some of the putty but with my scape there is a lot that is impossible to get to and set like stone. WC dont seem to be helping so I am stumped to continue with heavy wc or?? Could the 2 cups of gfo be exhausted already and need changed after 5days?? Should I try a different export media for this crazy po4 for the time being like the sponge media?? Will it exhaust leaching at some point ya think?? So many questions with no answers.lol
sorry for the book but thanks for reading - any insight into my situation would be very appreciated.

Thanks Drew
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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Well, I don't have a good explanation. The putty might be contributing significantly.

When you did your test, how much putty was in the 500 mL of water, and about how many times this amount went into the tank?
 
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afamousjohnson

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I used a good peanut m&m size ball mixed together for the control test. As far as the tank I would say a good 10+ times that amount within different areas. Ya I am just stumped and not really sure what direction to take. The jumping up and down #'s have me baffled. I worry about doing to many wc's but imagine a steady reg of consistent frequent wc over the next few weeks could be a good way to go? I am also confused with the gfo in the case maybe its exhausted. Definitely not looking for an answer here vs advice on your approach possibly.

If you were to try and break down an issue like this and get it back to normal.
What would be your opinion on a wc reg be here for a like problem?
How would you approach the extraction with say gfo media be say with crazy test numbers like this?
And of course anything you can think to look at that maybe I missed to check - maybe I am chasing a zebra in montana with the whole putty culprit if you know what I mean.

My tank and coral reaction has me baffled as well. It is completely mixed and in some ways positive while showing neg symptoms also.
LPS is obviously loving it and growing for the 1st time.lol except my mummy eye chalice which is displaying issues (but the only 1 out of the few)
Zoas are mixed with some doing normal and others showing issues.
Sps is mixed as well. Not my normal pe but still considerable on most. Some pieces seem untouched while others have display a super slow stn from a small area at the base. I have removed a handful of sps corals over to the frag tank and recession stops (odd it is the same system) ex. Here is I lost my german blue digi and a green BN while my green and red dragons go untouched - nothing on my oregon tort and p.monster (seems backwards to me) Colors in everything are of course awesome from lps to sps right now (LNS to a HNS). Although I have seen that before where you look at the tanks amazing popping more than usual colors during an issue and think hmmm and within weeks bamo polyp bail out.

Confusing issue - I am banging my head against the wall. Its like a sunken po4 bubble sprung a leak and is saturating my water. Dread what I will be seeing in the weeks to follow.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Whether the phosphate is from the putty or not, I'd continue to go after the phosphate with GFO or some other binder. Even if it is bouncing around, all the values are high, and part of the issue may be kit inaccuracy at these high levels.

FWIW, not all corals are harmed by high phosphate, even hard corals. There are some very nice tanks with 1 ppm plus phosphate. :)
 

Diesel

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Weird is underrated here.
How's is your skimmer doing under all this?
Did you try slowly on daily basis spike your bacteria level with a good life bacteria product?
This can help by bringing down po4 levels bit but more important to keep levels in balance and not jumping all around as you mention.
If you have some putty left from that stick try to have it in a large maybe 10 gal bucket with new mixed salt water with a small pump and monitor you po4 before and during the add on of the putty.
If you get a same result in po4 jump you find the problem, but I'm afraid there's more to it.
Maybe of adding that putty to your tank it killed most bacteria in your tank and that's why you went as result of balance with all.
Did you mention your nitrate and nitrite levels?
 
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afamousjohnson

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Thanks for the advice guys. The larger test sounds like a good idea as well (didnt have flow or volume in the last test) I will be cross checking my #'s again today to judge accuracy. Ya I have seen a couple amazing sworn by HNS out there - always seemed to scare me.lol

Skimmer is pulling great sludge and workin its butt off.lol nitrates come up as the zero mark but its a cheapo test kit for it - never check nitrites.

I have not ventured into the bacteria aspect before - tho I have felt in the past that at times I had a not best choice bacteria as my dominant strain in the system. Have been meaning to look into that side of things for simple over all health within the system. Always blamed the weird whiting from the bottom of a colony or coral on bacteria that so many tanks get and dont know why.
 
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afamousjohnson

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Will do. Went and had it checked by another hanna meter yesterday 10/5 and it came up .7. Took a different approach today - grabbed 15g from my lfs to do a wc. Wanted to use something dif from my own this week. Decided with the test results to change out gfo after I think 7days. Added my norm at 1cup and will be checking this week and possibly repeating this. Also changed out my sock on drain and added a bag of chemi elite in there just to help.
Will be doing a 5g bucket test tomorrow
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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GFO is likely depleted pretty fast at 0.7 ppm. Maybe only 1-2 days.

After you replace it (or even before if you think it may not be depleted), check the outflow from the GFO reactor for phosphate and see if the device is reading it a lot lower.
 
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afamousjohnson

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Haha - thinking in side the box - I hate when I miss the obvious. Lol great idea. Will be doing that now. It was weird when I dumped it. Normally I can dump the reactor and it all just falls out with the water. This time none came out and I really had to shake it to get the gfo dumped-never been like that b4.
 
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afamousjohnson

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Okay update - now been dealing with this problem for a month and the signs from corals is now present :( All my large sps(acro style) colonies except 1 have now taken on the slow slow receding from the base and have had to be removed and chopped up to save what I could. 80% of frags have had to be removed from DT due to same problem(sps again) checked for pests multiple times and found nothing - signs are a receding line starting at a spot on the base and slowly moving up the coral - very slowly (weeks/month) time - all the while with polyp extension still to the end. sometimes when I try and save the piece the death gets more aggressive and it is the peeling and waving off of the sps skin while moving up the coral usually an over night or couple days thing on those.

I have been taking corals out of the DT and putting them into the FT(which is on the same system,water but different tank) and death stops. Some I have glued over the death spot others just go in. A ratio of about 8 out of 10(many more than that went in.lol) are successful on surviving so far with the move - this really confuses me. In fact pieces that are in there look fantastic.

enough about that - let me just say this last month has been my hardest reefing experience yet - and I've been thru a crash.

here are #'s as I have continued to aggressivly take on the phos issue over this last month
10-6 phos .7 15g wc
10-7 phos .86 15g wc
10-8 phos in DT .36
phos in FT .37
10-10 phos .19
10-13 phos 2.41 15g wc
10-17 15gwc
10-20 phos 2.50 and blinking 10g wc
10-22 pulled almost 1/2 the water out of DT for a full 30g wc tested phos after this and it read 2.30
just dont know what to do here and now that corals are dying its really taking a toll. Mind you it is just sps being hit and I run a mixed reef but sps are my favorite and the dominant in the tank.

Couple other things that went on during the month as a part of the attack
-changed how I do wc - now pull water directly from DT and replace into DT
-change out GFO every 5 days
-took down fuges and cleaned/did some cheato harvesting and rinsing
-test phos of make up water - .03
-removed all putty I could from tank - still finding a coral here and there attached with it but all large globs have been removed
-vacummed a small problem area of SB twice
-took off gfo on 10-22 and replaced with phos sponge
-run 1 1/2 cups change every morning
-ran 3 fresh batchs and have cooked it per instructions and have started my 1st of the 3 secondary run - after this 6 day run I will test(out of tests, salt,etc etc etc from all this trying to fix stuff.lol) and either do 1 more run after cooking or put gfo back on. The tests after this may secure the decision on what is going to become of this tank. I love maitenence and have no problem with it, but 3-4 times a week for a month with no end in site or solution to the problem is an uphill battle that has worn me down. Salt water is an enjoyable struggle - so when it takes on a continous un-enjoyable form something has to change.....like the tank.lol just ranting - I love my tank.

One thing that did dawn on me is that my cucumber has moved a good inch or so sand that has been undisturbed up along the front rim of display for the few years the tank has been up. He has moved a good 60-70% of the front sand to the back of the tank?? Just throwing pitches here.lol Seems like I have tried looking at this from every angle
 

Diesel

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Dude I had the same problem in April.
It all started in March but April was the worst.
Took all corals out and luckily I had my frag room finished, 10'x2' of frag tanks.
Nuked my whole system, cooked the rock with miracid acid, new sand, cleaned all plumbing, got rid of my Radion pro led's, used T5 now, went with a CaRx.
Three months in now tank is doing better than before.
As of today I still have no idea what happened but do know what I did was the right thing.
I sucks to lose corals and have no clue what to do or what it is that caused it.
 
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afamousjohnson

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Ya i have a handful of friends that run big baller tanks that have seen acrossed the tank wipe out to sps colonies just like this with no true explination. We always go to heat or param issues. And try and find the culprit - who knows. Seen a theory based off of a bad batch of salt. I agree with the bacteria idea and like most issues have an initial irritation start like heat or param issues and go from there - like cold sores as a result due to a stressful week...or a light case hepB i guess.rofl.lol

As you can see i still have my humor - but i would say that is the biggest outcome issue i am having with the situation. I dont know about the rest of you but i am fused with my tank and as 1. Therefore our moods interact and display together. When the tank is down i am down and such. Its crazy how we can become so involved that a tank and a hobbiest can reflect eachother. My wife would agree and says i have been very off - grouchy - this month.lol Just taking the hits in stride and gonna try and turn the thought power around. The strength of mind power can be a great thing. See if i can fix my tank mentally.lol :)
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I'm sorry to hear what happened, and it is especially confusing as the frag tank is on the same system. :(

No corals that were only in the frag tank have suffered?
 
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afamousjohnson

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Haven't had the issue in the ft. Have lost some pieces in there that have moved over or on their way out already but nothing like the dt. After 5 days on the sponge (changed every morning) i decided to use my last phos test. Result was still 1.69 i dont get it. Seems there is a constant high supply of phos leaching somewhere.
 

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Have you vaccumed the sand bed during a water change? Might be worth a try you, you will know right away if the water is really brown that could be the culprit.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Haven't had the issue in the ft. Have lost some pieces in there that have moved over or on their way out already but nothing like the dt. After 5 days on the sponge (changed every morning) i decided to use my last phos test. Result was still 1.69 i dont get it. Seems there is a constant high supply of phos leaching somewhere.

Are you still using the GFO reactor? Have you tested the effluent from it?
 
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afamousjohnson

afamousjohnson

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I have. There is only about a 2foot section that really has any problems (or that i can even get to). Done it twice so far this month to try and help. It was dirty of course. The tank is 2 1/2 years old. Never done it before - never wanted to disrupt it.
 

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