Reef crystals vs esv - triton test

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the explanation Randy...I wouldn't have imagined the scenario you bring up about the movement stirring around the particles. I guess it would be good to give a random shake to the bag/bucket to mix them back up better?

Depends on how you do it, and simple shaking might make it worse. Personally, I wouldn't bother for ordinary use unless you see unusual results from a partial container.

 

[hart24601]

Just to clarify, did you mean NaCl is 071414. I thought Ca is in one of the solutions of bionic.

Yep, sorry!

 

[Marquiseo]

Great Job. Now if only someone would do Red Sea Salts or Triton should do comparison of each brand of salt.

 

[jeremy]

Good info hart. Thanks for posting.

 

[TheClark]

Great Job. Now if only someone would do Red Sea Salts or Triton should do comparison of each brand of salt.

I second that, triton should test all the major brands rather than us! They tested the NSW, why not the artificial? Help us out Triton!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I second that, triton should test all the major brands rather than us! They tested the NSW, why not the artificial? Help us out Triton!

I believe that is the plan:

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/triton-us/176526-what-salt.html#post2038274

 

[TJ's Reef]

'hart' Thanks for posting this thread up, great information with some very interesting testing results. I also am really looking forward to seeing more detailed test results of our most popular US salt mixes, especially SeaChem 'Reef' as the one I've switched to somewhat recently.

I'll paste the 'Salt Mix Comparisons by Brand Chart' that gpwdr posted up in the 'What Salt?' thread below here to better see Triton test results compared to these numbers listed for primary elements when provided.

Salt Product ​	Calcium ​	Alkalinity ​	Magnesium ​
Oceanic	580	8.5	1650
CoraLife	560	9	1380
SeaChem Reef Salt	540	10	1450
Kent	540	11	1200
OceanPure	510	10	1320
SeaChem Marine Salt	500	10	1400
Reef Crystals	490	13	1440
Marine Environment	480	7.5	1450
Red Sea Coral Pro	470	12.5	1400
D-D H2Ocean	450	10	1380
Tropic Marin Pro Reef	450	8.5	1380
Aquatic Gardens	430	8	1240
Tunze Reef Salt	420	9.5	1350
Reefer's Best	420	11	1200
Instant Ocean	400	11	1350
Red Sea	400	8	1300
Tropic Marin	375	10	1230
Brightwell Neomarine	370	11	1140
Crystal Sea Marinemix	340	9	1050
Crystal Sea Marinemix Bio-Assay	340	9	1050

Will be following this one for sure, thanks again for the great topic thread.

Cheers, Todd

 

[Goodgreef]

Very interesting with the Lithium. With lithium being so closely related to Sodium I wonder if this has to do with the difficulty of separating the two. I wonder if this is the result of them using a different sodium source than reef crystals, as ESV claims they use one low in heavy metals. Perhaps that source has lithium formed with the sodium. As a graduate student I helped out for a year with some research regarding the effects of Lithium on Sodium and vice versa in the human body and animals as it is prescribed for psychiatric purposes. While I'm certainly no expert on it, it would be a safe hypothesis that lithium being in your salt mix could affect organisms ability to uptake sodium and other salts. In addition falling sodium levels could lead to a detrimental uptake of lithium. This is assuming the lithium-sodium relationship is similar in aquatic life as it is in mammals, which I have no clue.

 

[Aquaculture]

I would think esv would be less prone to separating since 2 of the 4 parts are liquid and the other 2 are pure compounds. I really posted this whole thing to get others to send in samples too!

My thoughts exactly!!!! I am glad you posted this Hart, as I was just about to pull the trigger on purchasing a few boxes (200 gallon mix) of the ESV based on multiple reviews (most were great reviews) from several websites. I have tried a majority of the salts out there over the past 22+ years in this hobby, never tried ESV, and I always tried each salt with a minimum of 3 seperate batches, finding inconsistencies with the majority of them, especially in Alk.

Just for the record, whatever salt I choose to start this new tank up with, I will be using the entire bag/bucket to get most accurate results of that particular batch. I may just wait a few more weeks to see the test results of others and/or Triton to test other major brands of salts. So how about it Triton, can we get this ball rolling?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Very interesting with the Lithium. With lithium being so closely related to Sodium I wonder if this has to do with the difficulty of separating the two. I wonder if this is the result of them using a different sodium source than reef crystals, as ESV claims they use one low in heavy metals. Perhaps that source has lithium formed with the sodium. As a graduate student I helped out for a year with some research regarding the effects of Lithium on Sodium and vice versa in the human body and animals as it is prescribed for psychiatric purposes. While I'm certainly no expert on it, it would be a safe hypothesis that lithium being in your salt mix could affect organisms ability to uptake sodium and other salts. In addition falling sodium levels could lead to a detrimental uptake of lithium. This is assuming the lithium-sodium relationship is similar in aquatic life as it is in mammals, which I have no clue.

Just to clarify, organisms do not actively take up sodium from seawater. There is much more in seawater than in organisms bodies or cells. So getting enough sodium from seawater is not going to be an issue. Other functions where lithium impacts enzymes and transporters and such can, obviously, be a concern.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, many years ago, folks had problems keeping certain inverts with Coralife salt.

Coralife was known at the time to have excessively high levels of both borate and lithium (the lithium in one test by Craig Bingman was about 2x the ESV result in this thread). Larry Jackson (an experienced aquarist) lost one or more starfish after doing a small water change with some Coralife salt, IIRC, and some folks blamed it on the lithium. But I've not seen (but have not really looked in detail) for info on lithium toxicity to marine inverts.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

I have been using ESV for over a year now never had a lost or problem which was caused by ESV. I will continue to use it. Waiting to see ESV's reply.

 

[Goodgreef]

Just to clarify, organisms do not actively take up sodium from seawater. There is much more in seawater than in organisms bodies or cells. So getting enough sodium from seawater is not going to be an issue. Other functions where lithium impacts enzymes and transporters and such can, obviously, be a concern.

Ah good to know. So we will never find out if lithium is an effective treatment for my bipolar blenny.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ah good to know. So we will never find out if lithium is an effective treatment for my bipolar blenny.

:lol:

Maybe try different salt mixes and track his behavior.

 

[Ehsan@triton]

Hey Randy,

To the concerns about the Lithium i need to say that we have tested some aquariums in the US now since the MACNA and 80-90% of them show elevated amounts of Lithium.
All other countries we have tested so far don´t show this very significant abnormality.
I would realy like to know where this amounts are coming from, and would like to ask you if you have an Idea or Theory.

Afterwords we could start to prove the theory by Testing for the contamination source (sure, as this would help in a general purpose I would do the testings on my own ).

So any Help with that would be very appreciated.
All the Best Ehsan

 

[Ehsan@triton]

I second that, triton should test all the major brands rather than us! They tested the NSW, why not the artificial? Help us out Triton!

Yes we stared this already but please understand that, for proffesional, reasons we will not publish this data, it is not our job doing a quality-control for other companys or blaming them for any reason. We will only publish such Data when a company officaly ask us for that.
For sure we will give recomendations, wich salt to use and you could imagine on wich data they will be based.:smile:

All the best Ehsan

 

[TheClark]

Yes we stared this already but please understand that, for proffesional, reasons we will not publish this data, it is not our job doing a quality-control for other companys or blaming them for any reason. We will only publish such Data when a company officaly ask us for that.
For sure we will give recomendations, wich salt to use and you could imagine on wich data they will be based.:smile:

All the best Ehsan

Awesome, thanks Ehsan! Please PM me your recommendations or reference a web site if it is posted somewhere.

I love the impact Triton is already having on the hobby, looking forward to seeing how things change based on it.

 

[hart24601]

I also am excited for their recommendations. I have too much lithium...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hey Randy,

To the concerns about the Lithium i need to say that we have tested some aquariums in the US now since the MACNA and 80-90% of them show elevated amounts of Lithium.
All other countries we have tested so far don´t show this very significant abnormality.
I would realy like to know where this amounts are coming from, and would like to ask you if you have an Idea or Theory.

Afterwords we could start to prove the theory by Testing for the contamination source (sure, as this would help in a general purpose I would do the testings on my own ).

So any Help with that would be very appreciated.
All the Best Ehsan

I really don't know much about how folks are sourcing their products.

In his tests from years ago, Craig Bingman showed that all salt mixes had slightly elevated lithium (like the Reef Crystals) and a couple had very high lithium:

Aquarium Frontiers Feature


When I tested calcium chloride brands for impurities, some had significant lithium, and some did not. The ones that did might add a few ppm over the course of a year. I discuss the purity of it here:

Aquarium Chemistry: Purity Of Calcium Chloride ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

 

[hart24601]

I did get another response from ESV:

Thanks so much for providing those batch numbers and bringing this issue to our attention because it provides us with an opportunity to improve our product. I'm going to deal with this from a few different angles which may take some time but I will regularly update you on my progress as I proceed. One angle is the accuracy of the test methods so I need some time to research that a bit. I'm glad Randy is involved in the discussion as we go back along ways and I trust and respect his input. I'm also glad he provided the link to the older work done by Dr Bingman and Dr Atkinson as it is interesting to compare that to the new test results you received. Regarding lead, the older study showed an average concentration of lead for all salts tested as 541.31 ppb. Note the values in that study are in micromoles per kilogram and must be converted to ppb (by multiplying by the molar mass of the element). The concentration of lead for Reef Crystals in that study was 538.72 ppb which makes our 9.91 ppb level look pretty good compared to all the salts tested back then (our salt wasn't available then). Of course formulations change and testing technology changes and its not my intention to bury this issue with endless questions about testing accuracy. I too am concerned about the lithium and lead levels in your test and will cover all bases to get to the source of this. I've already contacted raw material suppliers and have determined a good starting point which I will discuss later after further testing. Regarding the safety of the salt, my opinion is it is safe given the batches you have are 3 months old and I have heard of no problems attributed to the salt, in fact the positive comments keep coming. Some of my close friends have used batches from that time period and have reported no issues they. The lithium level, if true, is 47% lower than the highest level found in the older study assuming both test methods are relatively comparable and as you mentioned, we don't know what levels are harmful in reef aquaria. Once again thanks for having this dialog with us and I will keep you posted as my investigation progresses.

Best Regards,

Bob Stark

President

ESV Aquarium Products Inc.