Vodka Dosing killing my entire tank!!!!

[robert829]

So, I have an 80g FOWLR tank that is about 9 months old. Well cycled and great. Has about 60 lbs of LR. For nearly the entire life of the tank, everything has been great. Had some initial hiccups, but never really lost ANY fish w/ the exception of one Coral Beauty that got marine TB. I had the tank fairly heavily stocked w/ typically only nano fish (clown gobbies, dragonets, small blennies, etc). Despite having 18 fish, I probably only had about 24 inches of fish. I also have a 3-4" fine sand/crushed coral bed.
With all this in mind, I decided to start vodka dosing a little more than 3 months ago to help with the infamous nitrate problem. I hadn't seen any real difference since I started dosing with the exception of a micro-bubble issue, which I attributed to the heavy skimming that comes with carbon dosing. I was dosing very very very slowly... only increasing 0.4 mL of 80 proof per 7 days. Despite no progress with the nitrate, I continued to press on. With this in mind, about 3 weeks ago my nitrates finally came out of the 60-80s, and dropped below 20, but my nitrites were oddly and slightly positive during this time as well. I was ecstatic, though. It was working. But then suddenly and out of no where, I began losing live stock... and dramatically so. A fish death about every 3 days. And this morning I woke up to three fish dead and probably four more on the way out.
I have a vet who did a fellowship in vet school on domesticated fish keeping. I spoke with her about this... and her response shocked me: "Well, I'm not surprised." With my mouth gaping open. She offered this info:
Vodka dosing should probably be limited to SPS-only tanks. While the carbon is a great food source for the denitrifying bacteria, it is also a great food source for a host of other anaerobic bacteria, many of which can be pathogenic. So, when you dose a tank with fish (especially a FOWLR), you are playing with fire. In my experience, I have seen a host of tanks crash b/c a certain bacteria was given the resources to get out of control and wipeout all the fish. This risks the vodka dosing pose to a tank and it's vertebrate-livestock is significant, and not just cyano- or skimming-related problems. While there is never certainty in the fish-keeping hobby, I find carbon dosing to be a bit more dangerous than many hobbyist would have you believe.

Sighs, why did I not read anything about this? Did I just miss it. Honestly, I am staring at a 40-page pile of info on vodka dosing that I read before I started. There's nothing about this. I am devastated... I feel like a terrible steward to these animals and an awful hobbyist. I really did care for these animals, and now they're all dead or dying.

So first off, has anyone else every run into this issue?

Secondly, please heed this warning. Low nitrates are not worth this!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, the driving of pathogenic bacteria has always been a theoretical concern that was discussed a lot when we started doing it years ago.

But the reality is that it just has not shown up as an actual problem. Many, many people have dosed vodka, and there is no apparent evidence that those peoples tanks are any more prone to bacterial infections in fish.

In your case, perhaps the vodka helped cause the issue, but there is no evidence that it did.

I think her assertion about a host of tanks crashing is just not representative of the experiences people report.

 

[NappyNapkins]

What was your water change cycle?

 

[robert829]

FWIW, the driving of pathogenic bacteria has always been a theoretical concern that was discussed a lot when we started doing it years ago.

But the reality is that it just has not shown up as an actual problem. Many, many people have dosed vodka, and there is no apparent evidence that those peoples tanks are any more prone to bacterial infections in fish.

In your case, perhaps the vodka helped cause the issue, but there is no evidence that it did.

I think her assertion about a host of tanks crashing is just not representative of the experiences people report.

Thanks, Randy. Sadly, I fear that this type of scenario is all too familiar to me and my colleagues who practice "human-medicine". This type of thing never happens... except for when it does.

 

[robert829]

What was your water change cycle?

30% every 5 days.

 

[Manolo_mp]

For me Vodka dosing caused a Dino flagellate outbreak that took me 4 months to cure. NEVER AGAIN!

 

[Bad Company]

Any time we vary from how nature balances out a problem, we face risks that we do not totally understand the ecosystems and all the potential pitfalls. I built an algae waterfall scrubber for my 63 gallon square tank, and nitrates have been undetectable for a year. I do 5% water changes every month or so, and have 8 fish and a bunch of corals. Tank maintenance takes me 30 minutes a week.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I should have mentioned that I'm sorry to hear about the fish loss.

 

[Rjramos]

Robert, first off sorry about your loss!At 9 months old, properly cycled, not a large bio load, and doing 30% water changes every 5 days (excessive IMO), there should not have been a nitrate problem especially as you stated "60-80" (that's really high). My live rock and some corals have been with me for 19 years, I've only transferred them to a larger tank once. I run a protein skimmer and a large size Refugium growing chaeto. Only now, with a huge bio load have I considered using carbon dosing (vodka), and my nitrates are around 25. IMHO, Consider another culprit to your high nitrates. Could it be that it didn't cycle well enough prior to adding livestock?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Any time we vary from how nature balances out a problem, we face risks that we do not totally understand the ecosystems and all the potential pitfalls. I built an algae waterfall scrubber for my 63 gallon square tank, .

Nature uses waterfalls to reduce nutrients in the ocean?

Seriously, though, I know some folks using ATS like to tout that it is somehow natural and other methods are not, but I don't entirely agree.

Bacterial growth is an equally natural process to algae growth. I dose vinegar for more reasons than nutrient reduction (such as to increase bacteria for filter feeders), but acetate uptake and metabolism is a natural process that occurs in the ocean. I am just accelerating it to meet my needs.

 

[zemuss]

I will be using a ATS to help keep algae lower. I just don't like using chemicals such as GFO to eliminate nitrates or phosphates. I take a more natural approach to think mostly or like to take a more natural approach.

 

[Bad Company]

Nature uses waterfalls to reduce nutrients in the ocean?

Seriously, though, I know some folks using ATS like to tout that it is somehow natural and other methods are not, but I don't entirely agree.

Bacterial growth is an equally natural process to algae growth. I dose vinegar for more reasons than nutrient reduction (such as to increase bacteria for filter feeders), but acetate uptake and metabolism is a natural process that occurs in the ocean. I am just accelerating it to meet my needs.

Nature uses light (photosynthesis), water motion (wave and current action for nutrient delivery) and algae to capture nitrates. So yes, that the major reason why nitrates are low in the ocean is because of algae growth. An algae scrubber does use the same mechanisms as nature. The same thing happens in our aquariums, but with so many nutrients, the algae grows everywhere and stifles the corals or just plain looks bad. An algae scrubber focuses that growth in an area easily harvested, and significantly reduces growth elsewhere while controlling nitrates and phosphates.

Robert, I'm really sorry to hear about your fish losses. The purpose of my original post was to share a method that worked really well for me, and doesn't carry a risk of overdosing.

 

[robert829]

No worries. The intent of my post was to insight a scholarly conversation about this exact type of stuff.
And thx for the condolences, guys.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Nature uses light (photosynthesis), water motion (wave and current action for nutrient delivery) and algae to capture nitrates. So yes, that the major reason why nitrates are low in the ocean is because of algae growth. An algae scrubber does use the same mechanisms as nature. The same thing happens in our aquariums, but with so many nutrients, the algae grows everywhere and stifles the corals or just plain looks bad. An algae scrubber focuses that growth in an area easily harvested, and significantly reduces growth elsewhere while controlling nitrates and phosphates.
.

Nature also uses organics to perform denitrification.

 

[jgalen0025]

A rapid increase in bacteria can result in lowering o2 concentration in the water which is likely what happened. Also, your nitrate test kit could be bad. There are a number of things that could have happened.

 

[Triggreef]

Not one person mentions anything about quarantining. Or possible lack there of. 9 months in is about the same time period for my non quarantined start to catch up with me and almost wipe my tank.

There's so many things that could have happened here & nothing has even been talked about. It is rather dismissive to jump to conclusions with such little info.

We're the fish showing any signs of infection? Any sores, tattered fins, ulcers, rashes, growths of any kind? We're they flashing or scratching? Hanging around near power heads? White stringy poop? Breathing fast? White gills? Loss of color? Red steaks in their fins? Cloudy eyes?

Type of fish living still v. What died?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

All good points.

 

[Cory]

I dosed sugar before, similar to vodka, and discovered my alkalinity got messed up, reading high when it was low. Or it messed with my test kit.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Curious. I wouldn't have expected a weird alk reading when dosing sugar.

 

[hart24601]

It's unlikey the fish death is caused from an increase of pathogenic bacteria due to extra carbon. As randy stated we would be seeing that a lot more, and it would happen in sps tanks along with fish only. Don't limit your investigation because it was suggested the carbon dosing caused it, there is probably something else going on and you need to figure it out. Did you run ammonia tests when the fish were dying? Nitrite?

Sorry to hear about the losses. It's always heartbreaking to lose a specimen.