Need to bounce some ideas around on No3 reduction.

[TinpanVA]

I'm not one for chasing the numbers, so to say this problem of mine has been going on for months is not exaggeration. Starting in January '14 No3 started climbing, .2 to .5 then jumping to 4ppm. In June it was up to 12ppm and since Aug it's been rock solid at 16ppm using red sea pro test kit. Also had my values verified at LFS. So I'm pretty sure they are high. I've taken all the usual steps to reduce it naturally. I have stopped using ammino supplements for the SPS, no longer feeding with coral food like reef frenzy & reef chilli. For about 4 or 5 weeks I jumped the water changes up to 50% which did cut the No3 in half only to have it raise back up within a week so I stopped doing that as well. My Po4 during this time was about .08 so I started using rowaphos and it stays down around .02 -.03 now (since feb '14). I'm starting to see a few of my SPS corals fade so I'm thinking the high no3 is starting to show itself. Not sure if this is related or not, but my Mg is elevated to fight bryopsis, so it's been at 1600 - 1700 ppm since about June. (Tech-M)

My tank is a 2.5 years old, it's a 29 gallon biocube. I do weekly 5 gal waterchanges. I feed fish freenzy daily which I rinse before each use. I have a media rack with filter pads that I change out twice a week, the media rack contains a bag of nuclear grade carbon, a bag of purigen, & a bag of rowaphos. The skimmer is a Aquamaxx HOB-1.

Finally, we are where I need to bounce the ideas around, 3 days ago I added 5 tbls of biopellets to a bag in my media rack. My plan was to use this as a way to lower the no4. But "friends" are suggesting Nopox or perhaps vodka dosing. I was always under the impression that once you started vodka dosing you were committed to it, and I was also concerned with a daily dose and what to do while I was away from the tank. I thought the pellets were the best option for me but now not so sure. I wanted to start small and see how it performed. Instructions called for 1 cup/50 gallons. I think the pellets need 2 or 3 weeks to develop the bacteria, so I left the rowaphos in until it's exhausted.

Thoughts, suggestions, or comments?

 

[UK_Pete]

My vote is to go with the vodka (or vinegar or even sugar etc). Its instant (no need to wait more than a couple of days for it to start), much more controllable, you can ramp it up and down to your exact spec, and respond to changes in the tank. Pellets seem easier at first but they clump, are harder to get working nicely (specially if you don't have the space for a reactor and pump with valve to adjust the flow).

If your running a nano with no sump etc, liquid dosing can just be a little peristaltic pump with a tube going to the tank, small and neat. With liquid dosing you know exactly how much carbon is going in, at what times. With pellets you have to eyeball it. Vodka (and probably pellets too) work extremely well though, I have a problem now with too little nitrate and phosphate, so I need to either cut back the carbon or dose phosphate and nitrate for good coral colour. I've read more problems with pellets like slime and cyano, probably because its hard to know how much carbon is being dosed. But each to their own and both can definitely work. But after using both I vote for liquid.

As for the pump, although you don't need one, its far better to use one, and a cheap single peristaltic from ebay can be as little as about 10 to 15 USD if you get a bare pump and put it on a timer switch (another $5 for the timer if you don't have one).

Cheers, Pete

 

[TinpanVA]

Thanks for the feedback Pete, couple of questions. Since I have a nano without a sump, will the HOB-1 be good enough to use carbon with? I mean, we are limited to how good a skimmer you can get, even the best ones only provide so so results. I think the HOB is on the higher end, and I feel it does very well for a hang on back type, but compaired to a skimmer mounted in a sump, no comparison. Secondly, my plan was to just use the pellets in a high flow area (media rack) and didn't think about the clumping issue, do you know what kind of results I'd get from using it this way? I'm seeing alot of feedback on the pellets being a cyano factory, wouldn't all carbon be just as likely to kick off cyano?

Thanks again!

 

[zemuss]

Since this is a AIO tank I would suggest the vodka or another carbon dosing method to get it under control. However, I would suggest finding the issue first before doing anything.

What is the husbandry like besides the water changes and media rack. Do you vaccum sand?
How deep is the sand bed?
You say fish frenzy but how much and do you trap it with a filter media?

 

[TinpanVA]

I vacuum the sand during the water change, but only a small section each week. I had a goby that did that job for me, but he passed on 'bout 6 months ago.
Sandbed is shallow, maybe 1.5" on average.
I just strain the food (once thawed) into a small fish net. I thaw 2 days worth at a time so it doesn't get all smelly.

I keep a very strict maintenace schedule with the tank, skimmer is cleaned every other month, along with the return pump. filter pads 2x weekly, purigen 6 weeks, carbon 3 months, rowaphos is about 5 weeks if i remember correctly. It's all set up and recorded on an online diary/log. Each week I just check off whats due and complete the task. Trust me, I've exhausted all options on where the no3 is coming from. As mentioned before, I don't 'chase' numbers and certainly don't change my routine "just because'. I know the reef frenzy (not fish frenzy as previously mentioned, my bad) has higher nitrates than say plain ole mysis, but I've fed the tank with the same food for 2 years, why the sudden change back in January? I'm at wits end.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I dose vinegar as one of several nutrient dosing methods, and a dosing pump can handle it when you are away.

I don't agree that once started you are hooked. You can stop or change doses if you want to.

 

[TinpanVA]

Just thinking out loud, the fact I'm not using a reactor and only placing the pellets in a high flow area, this isn't optimal and the way my system is configured, the pellets would be as far away from the intake to my skimmer as possible. If I understand what I've read that could leave me with a cyano issue. Additionally, there would be no tumbling effect and risk clumping, which to be honest I'm not sure why thats a big deal, just not optimal I guess. Plus weeks or months before I see results.

Vodka or vinegar dosing, the only real concern I have there is my skimmer going to be effective enough to allow me to dose? What are the pros/cons to vodka vs vinegar? I'll start researching that today.

The bag of pellets I already have is small, so not a big deal. I just added them this past weekend, so safe to say they prolly haven't done anything yet. I've posted this on a few of the forums I frequent so I could get as much feedback as possible, but seems the liquid dosing is the most popular, but struggling to verify best suited to "my" reef or specifically "my" skimmer. The HOB1 is rated up to 75 gal, has the shark 1.0 pump, from what I've researched will do 251 gph, although Aquamaxx never mentions gph anywhere in relation to the HOB-1 so I'm not sure it's the "beast" everyone says I need to liquid dose.

Hope that rambling made sense, I'm still on my first mug of coffee.

 

[UK_Pete]

Clumping is a huge - show stopping - issue imo, although maybe my experience was unique. But I found that without the right shaped reactor and right flow, it was hard to make sure the pellets tumbled right as they got softer with time, without having to intervene and break up clumps. If they clump, they turn into a slimy mess, which quickly turns smelly. Maybe I did it wrong tho so see what others say. When I got the flow right and with the right flow direction (little pipe directing the flow upwards in the reactor, slightly off centre to make the flow rotate) they worked well, but were still uncontrollable. When I switched back to vodka it was easier for me and neater with no reactor to try to hide in the tank (its a 55, I guess thats a nano by global reef standards, and everything is in the tank).

Re skimmer, small was fine for me, although I now have an oversized one, but I dont think the larger skimmer was beneficial. I just have it to have the capacity to deal with die off in the tank if an unexpected problem happens when im not at home. I think a HOB is fine personally, I had a pretty powerful one once, but I guess a tiny one might not be enough, someone else might have experience trying carbon with a tiny skimmer. But IMO a decent HOB is fine for careful carbon dosing. Careful meaning not overdoing it.

My experience with pellets was that if you dont know how much to put in, you might dose too much carbon, and cyano / other problems seemed to happen for me. One time the water got a little cloudy and my tang at the time got really unhappy, I guess a bacterial bloom, but it was a few months into using the pellets and I thought I had the amount right. IIRC I lost the tang shortly after despite removing the pellets.

BTW as for putting pellets anywhere but a reactor I dont think that will work, they get really sticky - its like a run away effect, if they start to get sticky and clump and you miss it and dont break them up, they end up really slimy. I dont think you will get enough turbulence anywhere but a reactor personally but maybe someone else had done this and made it work (maybe all pellets are not equal for instance).

And liquid dosing can be really gentle, thats the great thing. You can put just a little in (I am currently on 1ml of vodka a day because I now only have 1 fish). If I get more fish and feed more I can ramp it up, if I want more nitrates and phosphates I can ramp it down, you can just take a little nitrate / phosphate out or you can really go for low levels with more carbon. And you can change it on a daily basis without a long time period for the new level to settle (although remember stability is good). When you start it you see effects within about 3 days in my experience, and after that it responds within a day or two to changed levels (you can see the clarity of the water reduce for a day if you suddenly ramp it up). And a few days after startig it your water clarity seems to get really good (and stays that way).

Last thing was IMO carbon really interacts with an old sand bed. I originally had about 2 inches of sand about 5 years old, and after starting carbon I had small amounts of cyano for the first time in that 5 years. I totally removed the sand and cleaned it well before putting it back and that eliminated the cyano, but in the end I went bare bottom, after witnessing interaction of carbon with shallow sand beds in friends tanks too. I now have the opinion that any sand bed other than a really deep one (6 inch upwards) is just a nitrate / phosphate battery ready to give its nasties up, and when carbon (vodka, vinegar, liquified pellet mulm) diffuses into such a sand bed, cyano can happen on it. That might not be true and might cause controversy so I will say it is just an opinion. But now I am a real bare bottom fan, with strong flow along the tank bottom, all waste is immediately dealt with by the carbon dosing and there is nowhere for waste to be stored. I do just think though that if you have an old dirty sand bed, you have to be really careful with carbon of any kind, because you have so much nitrate / phosphate stored in that bed, that if you add too much carbon to it, theres enough nutrients for serious bacterial blooms and cyano etc. I know many (most?) people do use carbon with sand beds though.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't see a difference in the need for skimming with vodka/vinegar vs pellets.

 

[TinpanVA]

Ok, so I've decided to remove the pellets during this weekends maintenance. I certainly don't get a warm fuzzy feeling with sugar, so now it's vodka or vinegar. I like the idea of purity in vodka but apparently vinegar is more forgiving? While i try to decide between those two options, I'm worried about the sand bed. At 2.5 years old I'm sure it's holding alot of no3 down there. My tank is packed so only small sections are accessible. Carbon going to cause a Cyano explosion? If it does, just push through it and continue on? And lastly, should i remove the rowaphos?

 

[TinpanVA]

Now I'm going to throw nopox into the list of options, does the same thing just cost more? Or does red sea add something else that makes it more beneficial to a reef?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Now I'm going to throw nopox into the list of options, does the same thing just cost more? Or does red sea add something else that makes it more beneficial to a reef?

It appears to be a mixture of primarily the same ingredients as vodka and vinegar, and I don't see a reason to think any other low level compounds is anything more than an "impurity".

I'd keep the GFO.

Many people are successful with either vodka or vinegar, but all carbon dosing is not without risk, especially driving nutrients too low, or much less likely, driving a pathogenic species of bacteria.

The acetate in vinegar is taken up by a wide range of organisms, not just bacteria. That's one reason I prefer it, and in my tank, I had less cyano when first using it than vodka.

 

[TinpanVA]

Thanks for the input Randy, this has been a struggle for me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Good luck.

 

[UK_Pete]

I'm probably going to switch to vinegar because its cheaper, I can dilute it without it going off like vodka, and because Randy recommends it.

As for cyano explosion, if you dose liquid you can always back off / stop it if you see effects you don't like. And then ramp it back up if you think you have the problem under control etc. Thats one reason I find it easier. Personally I don't think you will get a cyano explosion with careful liquid dosing but it all depends on the tank, it seems to me (just an impression from reading others experiences) that older dirtier tanks are more likely to get lots of cyano, and thats when they are dosing heavily and have plenty of nutrients stored in the sand. Many people get a little cyano for a bit but its controlled, and my impression is that it makes you clean any dirty bits of the tank up, which seems to often get it under control. I think its best to ramp the dose up really slowly. If you have 29 gallons, I would probably start with about 0.25 ml a day vodka for a week, then 0.5 second week, 0.75 third week and 1ml a day fourth week. You could even start lower at 0.125 ml in at the beginning if you want to be ultra cautious. I think vinegar doses are about 8x the vodka dose iirc. But I don't know how much you feed so if you feed much heavier maybe you need more, but theres lots of guides out there to help. I think if it was me I would still start really low even if you are targeting a higher maintenance dose later, and only ramp up by that quantity per week. That gives you plenty of time to watch for any negative effects on the tank.

 

[TinpanVA]

That's pretty in line with an article I found yesterday on [another forum] but I thought it was an excellent write up and explained it very well.

http://saltwater-conversion.com/pages/carbon-dosing

 

[Cory]

I'd reduce nitrates by painting your glass bottom white and removing the sand, or have it tumble from wave action.

Reason: my bare bottom tank with painted bottom used to have nitrates in the 20-30ppm range. I couldn't figure out why. Upon investigation I found that chaeto macro was accumulating large quantities of particles of food, poop, detritus. The chaeto was huge, probably the size of two basket balls. I threw out 3/4 of it and now the nitrates are zero.

You can also add a very deep sand bed in a bucket, and replace the bucket of sand every 6 months to a year with new.

 

[TinpanVA]

One last question, day 5 of vodka dosing. I'll be doing my water change on saturday. Normal routine is to pull 5 gallons out of this tank, use 1 gallon as for changing the water in my quarantine tank and dump the remaining water and just add 5 gallons new to display. Will the treated water have any negative effects on the QT? It's a small 7 gal. No skimmer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd collect it just before a vodka dose, and as long as the qt is aerated well it should be ok.

 

[TinpanVA]

Cool, thanks again and merry Christmas!