Causes of my crash, per triton results, and fresh made Red Sea

[Triggreef]

Well a couple days ago I received the results of a couple tests that I sent to Triton. Not my tank water, But other possible sources of contamination.

A little background: My 1rst and only triton test of my tank water, revealed high copper, zinc, and iodine. The iodine result was suspected, but not the others. This was in the midst of a tank crash. I lost almost all my acros (over 40 species) and euphyllia, and acans over about a month or so, maybe 2 months.

Long story short, Both sources I checked were contributing to my problem. The first source is my ro/di. I haven't changed any of the filters in quite some time. I have a tds meter on it, which says 93 tds from my well and 1 tds on the out line. I really did not think that 1 tds on a tds meter was that big of a deal, but apparently it is. So needless to say all the water changes I thought I was helping, I was only hurting.

The second source, I keep live black worms in my garage in an established trough sort of system with bio-balls. If you know about black worms, you know they are dirty and spike ammonia fast if your not keeping them refrigerated and changing water daily. Well I keep them in a system with a sump where I can keep a large amount, since I feed them daily. It works rather well. The problem is that I was using tap water with no filtration at all, to keep the black worms. Never really thought about the worms, or small bit of water that might get into my tank when I feed them, as a source of contaminates. Well lesson learned. It was an expensive lesson.

So here are the Triton results of my fresh made ro/di water, as it is mixed with red sea to 1.026

And here are the results from my live black worm water...

 

[UK_Pete]

Really interesting to see those results. Some weird things though. If metal contaminants were coming from the worm water for instance, why is the tank tin 0, but the worm tin 85 ppb. Same with manganese. Tank copper does not look that high, but I don't know how much you diluted it with WC before - did you ever work that out (dilution by WC between crash and triton test)?

The zeo crowd use copper to do a controlled bleaching of their tanks. Zeospur2 at the recommended dose adds 130 ppb (ug/L) copper every 8 to 10 days - its got 12.25 g / L copper in it according to one aquarist who tested it, and the dose is 1 ml per 25 gallons every 8 to 10 days. That would make your level look low, like 30 times lower than the dose zeospur2 delivers.

As for the worm metal profile, it looks a bit familiar to me. Tin, copper, nickel, zinc, manganese. Copper and zinc make brass, tin and copper make lead free solder (I notice theres no lead in there). Nickel is often used to plate steel components and you have elevated iron too. The tank does not have corroding metal objects / plumbing in it does it? Or maybe the water is quite reactive as it comes out of the well and its stripping all this stuff from the pipes and fittings.

 

[NanaReefer]

Really interesting to see those results. Some weird things though. If metal contaminants were coming from the worm water for instance, why is the tank tin 0, but the worm tin 85 ppb. Same with manganese. Tank copper does not look that high, but I don't know how much you diluted it with WC before - did you ever work that out (dilution by WC between crash and triton test)?

The zeo crowd use copper to do a controlled bleaching of their tanks. Zeospur2 at the recommended dose adds 130 ppb (ug/L) copper every 8 to 10 days - its got 12.25 g / L copper in it according to one aquarist who tested it, and the dose is 1 ml per 25 gallons every 8 to 10 days. That would make your level look low, like 30 times lower than the dose zeospur2 delivers.

As for the worm metal profile, it looks a bit familiar to me. Tin, copper, nickel, zinc, manganese. Copper and zinc make brass, tin and copper make lead free solder (I notice theres no lead in there). Nickel is often used to plate steel components and you have elevated iron too. The tank does not have corroding metal objects / plumbing in it does it? Or maybe the water is quite reactive as it comes out of the well and its stripping all this stuff from the pipes and fittings.

I'm hoping you mean WARM & not WORM right?

 

[UK_Pete]

No I mean, the water in the second test - water from the worm breeder? I guess the theory is they are getting full of the metals from the worm breeder tank and then being transferred to the aquarium. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here though as I never knew anyone to breed worms!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't see a big problem with the tank water.

I don't know if the worm water was any problem since you likely add very little tot he display, but can you just rinse them?

 

[Triggreef]

Everyone is mis-understanding these tests. One set (the second set) is from the WORM water, yes worms. Live black worms which are one of the healthiest fish foods according to many on the boards. I don't know how much they are looked at scientificly but I can assure you my fish are the fattest around.

The FIRST test, is NOT my tank water, it is fresh made ro/di mixed to 1.026 with red sea regular salt.

 

[Triggreef]

Tank copper does not look that high?

The tank does not have corroding metal objects / plumbing in it does it? Or maybe the water is quite reactive as it comes out of the well and its stripping all this stuff from the pipes and fittings.

Thats not tank results up there. Tank tested at 4.10 ug/l and I suspect it was about 4 times higher than that prior to collecting a sample to send to triton.

I'm thinking that this is just how the water comes from my well. I have a softner I need to run to keep the appliances from turning orange and keeps the water from stinking so my water is not the best. It smells like sulfer if I don't have the water softner system on.

 

[UK_Pete]

Thats not tank results up there.

No I understood that, I was looking back at your past post where you put your tank triton up there. So if you think you have diluted about 4:1 with water changes, at 16 ppb original copper level, that dosent seem too high. Randy said his tank used to run 13 ppb, although I don't know if he had much SPS in there at the time. But considering the zeo lot actually dose copper at a level of 130 ppb every week and a half, that does not seem high, if the aquarists test of the zeospur2 copper level is correct.

I could imagine that if you feed lots of the worms and they are living in an environment of the second posted triton test, and they are going in to the DT for a long time with no export with DT WC, then those metals might build up. But IIRC your tank tests were not too bad, just that copper level and zinc was it? If the copper level is 30 times lower than the zeo crowd run it seems unlikely to crash your tank, although who knows. Zinc maybe? Was there anything else seriously elevated?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why didn't you have the tank water tested?

I'm not sure how you'd know what the problem might be without testing it. Since you don't add much worm water, I expect each number on it probably drops by a factor of much more than a thousand when added to the tank.

 

[Triggreef]

Why didn't you have the tank water tested?

.

I did, that's what prompted these 2 tests.... https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/triton-us/183815-my-triton-results.html

 

[Triggreef]

No I understood that, I was looking back at your past post where you put your tank triton up there. So if you think you have diluted about 4:1 with water changes, at 16 ppb original copper level, that dosent seem too high. Randy said his tank used to run 13 ppb, although I don't know if he had much SPS in there at the time. But considering the zeo lot actually dose copper at a level of 130 ppb every week and a half, that does not seem high, if the aquarists test of the zeospur2 copper level is correct.

I could imagine that if you feed lots of the worms and they are living in an environment of the second posted triton test, and they are going in to the DT for a long time with no export with DT WC, then those metals might build up. But IIRC your tank tests were not too bad, just that copper level and zinc was it? If the copper level is 30 times lower than the zeo crowd run it seems unlikely to crash your tank, although who knows. Zinc maybe? Was there anything else seriously elevated?

I'm not sure on your conversion from ug/l but if it were say 16 ug/l before I brought it down with all those water changes 16 ug/l converts to .016 ppm which I thought that .015 ppm is where corals begin dying. I could be wrong I'm not double checking the Google conversion rate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I did, that's what prompted these 2 tests.... https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/triton-us/183815-my-triton-results.html

OK, I get it now.

FWIW, I wouldn't be convinced that the coral loss was due to a chemistry issue that would show up in the Triton test, but I think somehow not sending the worm water to the main tank is a good plan.

 

[Triggreef]

OK, I get it now.

FWIW, I wouldn't be convinced that the coral loss was due to a chemistry issue that would show up in the Triton test, but I think somehow not sending the worm water to the main tank is a good plan.

I'm all ears for any other possible causes you can think of. Rule out alk swings, lighting changes, nutrients, and the big 3 because those have all been the same for at least over a year, closer to 2 years. Only a little base of the red planet, sarmentosa, hawkins, and my ck stag remain as far as acros. I also have a tiny blueberry shortcake that is only from October that is hanging in there. Here is my last FTS before all my acros and euphillia went:

 

[Triggreef]

I also just lost a lobo out of nowhere fine yesterday, gone this morning. So it appears as though its not over. I haven't changed any water in at least a week and have been feeding less blackworms ever since suspecting that as the source of copper/zinc etc

 

[UK_Pete]

Rewinding, was it tissue sloughing off the acros which you initially saw? I think from reading your original triton post thats the idea I get. So, was it like RTN? Were you aware that you overdosed iodine (IE were you able to connect the 2 events, OD the iodine and a day later corals in distress)?

If it looks like widespread RTN, since RTN is likely a bacterial infection which takes advantage of weakened corals, to me your original idea of the iodine OD causing it all seems quite possible. Iodine OD weakens corals, some of which then start to get RTN, pathogenic bacteria in water multiply, RTN spreads to other corals, water quality goes further down because of necrosis, which only hinders the corals recovery etc.

How much time went by between ODing iodine and first signs of stress would be interesting. If it was like hours, that would seem to indicate a link is quite likely. And, how much the OD was by (how much you usually dose / how much you did dose).

Edit: Some time it would be really interesting to group fund a triton test of zeospur2, since we know that many aquarists use it, and at what dosage. If we knew what was in it, we would have a baseline for what amount of heavy metal input to the tank would be safe(ish). I would put a few bucks in if another 3 or 4 people would too, and if someone can contribute a few drops of zeospur2.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It might be a biological infection rather than a chemical problem.

Are you dosing organic carbon?

 

[Triggreef]

Rewinding, was it tissue sloughing off the acros which you initially saw? I think from reading your original triton post thats the idea I get. So, was it like RTN? Were you aware that you overdosed iodine (IE were you able to connect the 2 events, OD the iodine and a day later corals in distress)?

If it looks like widespread RTN, since RTN is likely a bacterial infection which takes advantage of weakened corals, to me your original idea of the iodine OD causing it all seems quite possible. Iodine OD weakens corals, some of which then start to get RTN, pathogenic bacteria in water multiply, RTN spreads to other corals, water quality goes further down because of necrosis, which only hinders the corals recovery etc.

How much time went by between ODing iodine and first signs of stress would be interesting. If it was like hours, that would seem to indicate a link is quite likely. And, how much the OD was by (how much you usually dose / how much you did dose).

Edit: Some time it would be really interesting to group fund a triton test of zeospur2, since we know that many aquarists use it, and at what dosage. If we knew what was in it, we would have a baseline for what amount of heavy metal input to the tank would be safe(ish). I would put a few bucks in if another 3 or 4 people would too, and if someone can contribute a few drops of zeospur2.

The Iodine OD is tough to really know what happened. I was dosing kent iodine forever through ato at roughly 30ml a week, maybe a little more depending on evap rates, then began lugols at 4 drops each time I filled ato or every other time, but I cut kent dose in half. About the same time I started the red sea coral colors which I found also had iodine in it. Then the iodine level per the red sea test was off the chart at which time RTN began and I started as much water change as I could, and sent out that first triton test. Within a month or so all the acros went.

As far as what the RTN looked like, most started from the base and took a couple days to complete. Some were just fine one day and gone the next. My "CK stag" was the first I noticed about 2" of RTN at the base. After the first water change of only 30g, That RTN stopped in its tracks and began to heal while others perished. I still have the ck stag and it seems to be growing again. Lost a lot of the smaller frags first after that, red planet and joe the coral among the last. Red Planet began at the base and I hacked it up trying to save it. As it turns out, the base is the only part that recovered, while almost all the frags perished. All this while colors and PE were great with all of them.

 

[Triggreef]

It might be a biological infection rather than a chemical problem.

Are you dosing organic carbon?

I run denitrators, so I dose 5ml vinegar twice a week. 2 small sized aquaripure denitrators. I also was dosing about 20 ml of vinegar to the sump per day in hopes of being able to run less GFO in time. That amount was dose probably for a year or so prior to this event which began around oct/november I think. I raised that dose of vinegar to about 36 per day probably in late december and just yesterday I went up to 48.

 

[Triggreef]

Acans I had growing for a year+ and My green candy cane even went. Candy cane grew from 2 heads to about 24. Now I'm down to a couple heads hanging by a thread. While blue candy cane I had the whole time keep growing and showing no signs of stress...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The reason I asked about carbon dosing is that it has the potential to drive pathogenic bacteria, and in at least one case it may have contributed to an SPS wipe out.