Question to Randy Holmes No3 issue

[Volpone]

Hi randy :
I discuss this issue in my tank with a lot of reefers and I wrote many topic talking about no3 in my tank ,for almost 2 years I had struggling to drop my nitrate using almost all methods starting from weekly water change ending with running bio bellets reactor right now .
I have mix reef tank with light bio load for 100 g tank .nothing works till now ,the Lowest no3 I reach 15 ppm using salifert test kit .
Recently I increase feeding to get my po4 to raise and using seachem phosphors flourish also my po4 won't move from zero .
So if I have zero po4 in my tank how my nitrate still high ??? If we consider the main source of nitrate is over feeding and fish produce ???

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wouldn't increase feeding as a way to reduce nitrate as that can't really work.

Adding phosphate itself could, but only if it is limiting some sort of nitrate export method. It might be limiting the pellets, but it may also just be that you can't accurately read the phosphate level with that kit.

Can you describe all the nutrient export methods that the tank is using or used in the past?

 

[Volpone]

Thx for ur reply , first of all i was new in reef tank and that is the only issue I've struggle ,
First doubt about my no3 source they told that my rock leaching nitrate and my sand bed so i replace all my rock and sabd bed with live one and it was almost before 1 year ago .
I start with water change weekly about 25% from water volume and reduce feeding for 2 time per week ;didnt work .i add refugium , then i start using biopellets and trying to understand it , changing many brands of bellets each 3or 4 months when i dont see any results .
Start vodka dosing ending with cyano bloom , and i reach dose 8 ml per day with no result.
Then no3 po4 using the full dose with no single effect on nitrate .
Algea scrubber didnt success with me and algea doesnt grow on screen .
And for sure water change as basic job during all this method some time i did huge amounts of water change reach almost 70 % and nitrate keep reading .here is the test in November 2014 and test done yesterday

 

[Wiz]

What nitrate test is that?

 

[Volpone]

What nitrate test is that?

Lol its make me confuse everytime i look at i dont read it less than 25 ppm but i think its between 10 and 15 now .

 

[Volpone]

My big doubt now , how come that nitrate keep high if we consider that the source is feeding and heavy bioload .
To continue my struggling ive change 3 skimmer also to end with vertex 180i , i used before reef octopus and aqua excel rated up to 200 galon
My equipment is 2 mp40 return pump ehiem 4000 l/h and vertex skimmer 180i biopellets reactor using ecobak bellets with gentle flow, active carbon reactor using vertex carbon , refugium with cheato and micro algea .

 

[Volpone]

Here is my sump

 

[Volpone]

I reach this reading of nitrate after siphoning the sand bed gradually before 3 months , this time i use caribsea argonite 1 to 2 mm size , because i saw alot of detritus stucking in my sand bed and it was big gravel 3~5 mm

 

[Wiz]

Lol its make me confuse everytime i look at i dont read it less than 25 ppm but i think its between 10 and 15 now .

What I meant was what brand is the test? I've never seen one that has a reading like that except cheap test strips. Who makes that nitrate test?

 

[Volpone]

Its salifert test kit ??

 

[Volpone]

And if u wanna say try to change salifert its new one , and i test by elos also , so that is so accurate brand to test no3

 

[Wiz]

Its salifert test kit ??

Oh. Sry. I use api and reef foundation. Never used salifert. Maybe I should give it a try.

 

[UK_Pete]

What phosphate test are you using? I think like Randy said it seems you have too little phosphate for the bio pellets / No-po4 / vodka etc. These things will only reduce nitrate if there is a little phosphate available - it sounds like you know that. A decent figure for the phosphate you want to target is 0.05 - if you are measuring zero phosphate with a good test kit then you need to dose phosphate as you are doing. In your tank of 100g you would add about 6 ml of seachem phosphorus flourish to raise your phosphate 0.05 ppm.

You need to keep dosing and testing say an hour later though, because at first your phosphate will drop really quickly. There are 2 reasons for that. Firstly your rocks and sand will absorb the phosphate until they have a layer of phosphate covering them. They 'buffer' the phosphate addition, and they will continue to remove phosphate from the water for a while (days, weeks) depending on how little phosphate there is in them now.

The other thing that takes phosphate from the water is bacteria. If you are dosing vodka (or no po4, bio pellets etc), and you have nitrate in the water, then as soon as you put phosphate in the water, the bacteria will consume it (removing a little nitrate at the same time). So you need to keep dosing the phosphate. Because you dont want your phosphate levels to get much above about 0.05, you need to keep testing and dosing, as frequently as you can, ideally 2 or 3 times a day at first, because the phosphate might be taken up quite fast. When the phosphate level starts to stabilise at 0.05 you can relax the testing, just aim to keep the water with that level of phosphate. Then, as long as you are dosing vodka / vinegar etc, the nitrates should come down.

 

[Volpone]

What phosphate test are you using? I think like Randy said it seems you have too little phosphate for the bio pellets / No-po4 / vodka etc. These things will only reduce nitrate if there is a little phosphate available - it sounds like you know that. A decent figure for the phosphate you want to target is 0.05 - if you are measuring zero phosphate with a good test kit then you need to dose phosphate as you are doing. In your tank of 100g you would add about 6 ml of seachem phosphorus flourish to raise your phosphate 0.05 ppm.

You need to keep dosing and testing say an hour later though, because at first your phosphate will drop really quickly. There are 2 reasons for that. Firstly your rocks and sand will absorb the phosphate until they have a layer of phosphate covering them. They 'buffer' the phosphate addition, and they will continue to remove phosphate from the water for a while (days, weeks) depending on how little phosphate there is in them now.

The other thing that takes phosphate from the water is bacteria. If you are dosing vodka (or no po4, bio pellets etc), and you have nitrate in the water, then as soon as you put phosphate in the water, the bacteria will consume it (removing a little nitrate at the same time). So you need to keep dosing the phosphate. Because you dont want your phosphate levels to get much above about 0.05, you need to keep testing and dosing, as frequently as you can, ideally 2 or 3 times a day at first, because the phosphate might be taken up quite fast. When the phosphate level starts to stabilise at 0.05 you can relax the testing, just aim to keep the water with that level of phosphate. Then, as long as you are dosing vodka / vinegar etc, the nitrates should come down.

That what im trying to do , thx for ur explanation , phosphate never go up than zero , that why i start feeding frozen food daily 2 cubes , also nothing effect on po4 and it keeps zero .
Im using salifert and hanna to test po4 , both of them reading zero phosphate .
Si what u recommend to dose seachem 6 mm daily ?? Or twice aweek ? And keep measuring po4 ?

 

[UK_Pete]

Remember that food has both nitrates and phosphates in it at very roughly the same ratio that these two will be taken out by dosing vodka etc. So dosing food will supply both nitrates and phosphates and 'use' your vodka up, but nitrates will still stay unbalanced (high). Maybe eventually this would work because food often does have a little more phosphate in it than the bacteria that are generated in your tank by vodka, but since you have liquid phosphate already, a good test kit for it, and high nitrates, I think you might as well continue with the phosphate dosing for fastest results.

I would aim to keep phosphates at 0.05 ppm. If that means dose phosphate 3 times a day then do that. I think probably dosing once or twice a day would be OK, but the only way to know if levels drop quickly or slowly is by testing. If you dose 6 ml of the seachem phosphate in the morning, and then test the phosphate say three times that day, after 4 hours, 8 hours and then 12 hours, you will get a feel for how fast the phosphate is being used. Although this does mean quite a lot of testing, its the quickest way to safely increase your phosphate. If you dose 0.05 ppm of phosphate in the morning, and then 4 hours later it is already down to zero again, then you should dose again. Aim to keep the phosphate at 0.05 constantly but be careful not to overdose IMO. Eventually (days or weeks) phosphate levels will stabilise, although while your nitrates are high phosphates might continue dropping as the bacteria use nitrates and phosphates up.

You can use the rough figure of 1 ml of seachem phosphate raising phosphate in the tank by 0.01 ppm. So if you measure 0.02 ppm phosphate, you can add 3 ml of seachem phosphate. That way you can try to maintain a constant 0.05 ppm.

BTW this assumes that the seachem phosphate you are using has 0.3% phosphate in it. I looked it up on the web and that was the figure I found. But you should probably check the label of your product to make absolute sure that your bottle does contain this amount.

 

[Volpone]

Remember that food has both nitrates and phosphates in it at very roughly the same ratio that these two will be taken out by dosing vodka etc. So dosing food will supply both nitrates and phosphates and 'use' your vodka up, but nitrates will still stay unbalanced (high). Maybe eventually this would work because food often does have a little more phosphate in it than the bacteria that are generated in your tank by vodka, but since you have liquid phosphate already, a good test kit for it, and high nitrates, I think you might as well continue with the phosphate dosing for fastest results.

I would aim to keep phosphates at 0.05 ppm. If that means dose phosphate 3 times a day then do that. I think probably dosing once or twice a day would be OK, but the only way to know if levels drop quickly or slowly is by testing. If you dose 6 ml of the seachem phosphate in the morning, and then test the phosphate say three times that day, after 4 hours, 8 hours and then 12 hours, you will get a feel for how fast the phosphate is being used. Although this does mean quite a lot of testing, its the quickest way to safely increase your phosphate. If you dose 0.05 ppm of phosphate in the morning, and then 4 hours later it is already down to zero again, then you should dose again. Aim to keep the phosphate at 0.05 constantly but be careful not to overdose IMO. Eventually (days or weeks) phosphate levels will stabilise, although while your nitrates are high phosphates might continue dropping as the bacteria use nitrates and phosphates up.

You can use the rough figure of 1 ml of seachem phosphate raising phosphate in the tank by 0.01 ppm. So if you measure 0.02 ppm phosphate, you can add 3 ml of seachem phosphate. That way you can try to maintain a constant 0.05 ppm.

BTW this assumes that the seachem phosphate you are using has 0.3% phosphate in it. I looked it up on the web and that was the figure I found. But you should probably check the label of your product to make absolute sure that your bottle does contain this amount.

Very helpful info ,thx buddy.
I try to understand the dose of phosphorous flourish from seachem its not clear direction, anyhow i will try ur method and back with result to u .

 

[Volpone]

Im still waiting ur drop boss Randy homles

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Im still waiting ur drop boss Randy homles 

Sorry, busy day today. I'll try to get to it soon.

 

[Volpone]

Sorry, busy day today. I'll try to get to it soon.

Thx

 

[Rjramos]

Randy would kalkwasser dissolve in 1.025 salt water. Could it be a useful method to recirculate aquarium water through a vessel/canister containing kalk and slowly dripping it in a sump? Perhaps,mixing periodically and allowing to settle? Kind of like a calcium reactor uses recirculated aquarium water. Is this possible?