How would Tin and Aluminum be entering my tank?

[slojmn]

In the past I have asked how to get rid of tin and aluminum in my tank. Now I am asking, Where in the world is it coming from? My tin levels have continued to climb despite my attempts to lower it. Aluminum has been up 120 then back at 0 and back up to 122. In November,2014 Triton results showed tin at 42, in Late December, 2014 after multiple large water changes, up to 59. Finally most recent Triton test, tin at 89. Since December's higher than November results I swapped out sand bed, swapped out all pumps, took out all powerheads and replaced, dipped 60% of my rock in Muriatic Acid and added the Little Fishies "MetalSorb" to the tank. I know Metalsorb does nothing for tin but I thought it couldn't hurt. I thought rusty bits of my steel stand that I found in the sump were to blame. I covered the sump 5 months ago. My make-up water has always tested at 0 for tin and aluminum.

I did some research on various boards and saw some references to tin levels rising as a result of bad hardware somewhere in the tank, leaching out the metals, so I swapped out all pumps and powerheads. I am unable to support any SPS in this tank over the past 18 months. Alk, Ca, and Mag are stable and have been extremely stable since last summer. Fish, most LPS, shrooms and some zoas are fine. There is not huge growth but overall colors and medium levels of growth on most of these inhabitants. Fish are fine. The idea of heavy metal poisoning affecting the SPS seems in line. I add food, Rod's Food, various frozen foods, pellets and some high quality flake in a smorgasbord for the fish and LPS. I dose BRS alk and Cal supplement through a doser. Make up water is super clean NO TIN, NO ALUMINUM. Where in the heck is it coming from. The SPS corals are not lying, they perish within a month of being added. I am periodically trying a few frags here and there to see with my eyes if things are better. The Triton test results and the SPS are telling me nothing is changing no matter what I have done. I am totally at a loss. I was thinking of doing a 60-75% water change and then 60-75% water change 3 days later to really dilute the metals, but then what?? Without finding the cause they will just rise again. I am not a huge "Chase the numbers kind of reefer" but my corals have been telling me for 18 months that something is seriously wrong in the tank. If only my make-up water was the culprit!!!!

I am open to any thoughts, speculation, suggestions. Desperation is setting in. I have been very methodical about my approach but I am running out of options and things to consider or change.

 

[JOKER]

I would send in a sample of newly mixed water. May be in your salt mix.

 

[Diesel]

Ask Randy Holmes-Farley, he did not to long ago a research as in Tin leaching from PVC pipes.

 

[KritikaL]

what heaters do you use? check them

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does the hood interior condense moisture at night on any metal surface that might drip?

Any chance of flaking from anything metal above the tank?

It has been suggested there may be tin in some PVC, as mentioned above, but the correlation across all reefers with tin isn't all that strong.

What salt mix?

 

[slojmn]

I would send in a sample of newly mixed water. May be in your salt mix.

With every sample of aquarium water I sent in a sample of feshly made saltwater. The results came back with tin 0 and aluminum 0

what heaters do you use? check them

I use Jebo heaters. I replaced one last July and the other one has not been replaced in a while. I am game to replace it as I have replaced every other piece of equipment in the last 8 weeks.

Does the hood interior condense moisture at night on any metal surface that might drip?

Any chance of flaking from anything metal above the tank?

It has been suggested there may be tin in some PVC, as mentioned above, but the correlation across all reefers with tin isn't all that strong.

What salt mix?

Randy, My tank is an open top, nothing condensing from my Giesemann light fixture. It is super clean and nice. I do have a rusty Giesemann fan sitting on the back of the tank. It hasn't run all winter but I suppose it could be dropping something in here and there. Not on the level of what is happening though. I will certainly pull it off right away and get it cleaned up as the warm weather is approaching. I initially suspected my steel stand as it is a mess of flaking rust. But I put the cover on the sump 5 months ago and the tin number has doubled in that time.

I use ESV 4 part salt. I was thinking of getting the Triton special salt with trace elements left out and doing a water change with that. I am not sure it would help. I also have considered doing a massive water change (60%-75%) ever couple of days to completely dilute the tin and aluminum but I need to find the source or it will just happen all over again. I also have considered getting NSW from the LFS but that idea is not a very thrilling one for me.

I am almost at the point of tearing down the entire system. 18 months of this is getting rough. Its not like I don't know what I am doing either. Super sad .

 

[acidtablockshifty]

are you running all pvc or do you have flexible tubing, i used flexible tubing some from home depot and some from my lfs, the stuff from home depot said on the package lead free, so when i was heating up the tubing to get it uncurled i noticed that the very clear tubing when heated had a metallic look to it. I still used it but always wondered what they mix with plastic/ did they lie about it being lead free in the first place. I will never use the stuff again unless i just need a flex point, if i could easily change mine all out for pvc pipe i would, the worst part is the stuff is not even easier to work with and you need clamps on everything. Just my thoughts, i also ditched my work light reflectors on my scrubber for plastic ones they sell at depot now, because of salt creep build up that could fall back into the tank after corroding a bit

 

[slojmn]

are you running all pvc or do you have flexible tubing, i used flexible tubing some from home depot and some from my lfs, the stuff from home depot said on the package lead free, so when i was heating up the tubing to get it uncurled i noticed that the very clear tubing when heated had a metallic look to it. I still used it but always wondered what they mix with plastic/ did they lie about it being lead free in the first place. I will never use the stuff again unless i just need a flex point, if i could easily change mine all out for pvc pipe i would, the worst part is the stuff is not even easier to work with and you need clamps on everything. Just my thoughts, i also ditched my work light reflectors on my scrubber for plastic ones they sell at depot now, because of salt creep build up that could fall back into the tank after corroding a bit

I run 90% PVC. I have one line that has a flex point in it so I run a black flexible hose line on that one.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, the form of lead that might be in plastics will not be metallic so won't be shiny like metal. It would typically be ionic and likely a white powder.

 

[Jay6363]

I too have huge levels of tin in my system trying to locate and eliminate it..... Any suggestions?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How high?

 

[slojmn]

The source for the excessively high amount of Tin and, ostensibly, other yuckiness was my steel stand that had rusted and flaked off into my sump for a long time. When I removed the sump completely, cleaned it down to brand new, scraped off huge chunks of the rusty grossness, and covered the sump the tin levels dropped down to low levels. Basically I went from a high of 89 in early April down to 11 in early June per Triton tests. I had tried swapping out all equipment, sucking out detritus from the sump and massive water changes and the tin kept rising. The cleaning of the sump and subsequent scraping of the stand was my last ditch effort. It WORKED!!! I suspect by August I will be down to near nothing for tin levels. In the last two months my SPS frags are all encrusting and growing once again. Everything looks great and I am feeling so much better.

I sure hope you can find the source of Tin in your tank. If it is lower numbers you might look to rusted magnets in pumps or power heads...just a thought.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The source for the excessively high amount of Tin and, ostensibly, other yuckiness was my steel stand that had rusted and flaked off into my sump for a long time. When I removed the sump completely, cleaned it down to brand new, scraped off huge chunks of the rusty grossness, and covered the sump the tin levels dropped down to low levels. Basically I went from a high of 89 in early April down to 11 in early June per Triton tests. I had tried swapping out all equipment, sucking out detritus from the sump and massive water changes and the tin kept rising. The cleaning of the sump and subsequent scraping of the stand was my last ditch effort. It WORKED!!! I suspect by August I will be down to near nothing for tin levels. In the last two months my SPS frags are all encrusting and growing once again. Everything looks great and I am feeling so much better.

I sure hope you can find the source of Tin in your tank. If it is lower numbers you might look to rusted magnets in pumps or power heads...just a thought.

Glad you found that source in your case.

 

[slojmn]

Glad you found that source in your case.

Thanks Randy. It really was a long odyssey with a lot of moments of "I'm done, the tank is coming down!!" But my partner would always say, "Don't make that kind of decision when you are upset. Think about it, give it time." I always came around in a few hours with a new idea of the next one thing I would look at. I was very systematic in my approach and it finally paid off. The game changer came with the first Triton test result in November 2014, the 11 months prior to that I was just in limbo watching everything perish with no idea what in the world was happening. It still took 7 more months to really get a handle on things but in the end it seems that I have finally gotten things back on track and humming along nicely.

 

[andrew james]

Sorry to bring this post back from the dead.

I just got a new Triton test in and I'm showing 12ug/l of tin. and 6ug/l of copper. I pulled all of my powerheads and inspected them. Tonight Im going to send off a test from my Seawater holding container to see if this is happening before the water hits my aquarium.

I guess my question is has anyone noticed high levels of Tin and Copper and made a correlation between elevated levels and the food you feed your fish. I'm wondering if these elements are coming into my system in the food I feed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What is your seawater holding container?

6 ug/L copper isn't likely a killer. I've had twice that in an apparently fine tank.

Here's my discussion of sources of metals:

Reef Aquaria with low soluble metals
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/

 

[andrew james]

My holding tank is a Norwesco Polyethylene tank but it does have an old pump inside of it. I'm really concerned about the tin since my last Triton test showed it at 0. I haven't had any issues with coral dying so far and I dont want to.

 

[andrew james]

Any idea if 12 ug/l of tin is dangerous? I've turned up my auto water change to change out 20 gal per day until I figure this out. Is there a test kit that measures tin?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It isn't well known what tin levels are a concern, and tin can take a variety of forms so concentration is not the only factor.

 

[chicago]

Well this is interesting.. my Tin .levels are as follows..

10.22 µg/l

ATI says that is high... as reference value is
0.43 µg/l
So I am
+9.79 µg/l to high..

This is in my make fresh mixed replacement water for doing a water change.. Will look to see if it is the heater.
ESV salt is what i use..

Here is the link for the ATI results for make up water of ESV.. The salinity is a little low.. so that might impact other results..

http://lab.atiaquaristik.com/share/134fe2594f84b3e164ca