64Ivy's Test Results

[64Ivy]

Just got my results in today. Not too bad I suppose considering some I've read. Not too happy with the Copper result considering I've had this issue for a few years and I still cannot find the source. Anyway, some specifics:

Tank: 500g 'SPS' dominant reef. Barebottom. Old School Berlin System. Component of a 650g system which includes a 40g 'LPS' tank and a common 125g sump.
Age: Approx: 1 year since last rebuild. 50% BRS Pukani Rock, 45%, Premium Aquatics 'Mandano', 5% 15 year old Live Rock.
Salt: Reef Crystals.
Additives & Supplements: Kalkwasser, GAC & GFO, Very occasional hits of Acropower.
Others: Temp: 77.6 - 79.0, Salinity 35 ppt. pH: 8.1 - 8.3 (Pinpoint Monitor)

Any comments or questions are welcomed and appreciated.

Sorry if I uploaded this incorrectly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Salinity looks to be higher than 35 ppt (assuming the Triton values are correct).

How did you measure it?

Not that many people get elevated copper in Triton's test, but a few do. I didn't, despite my measuring copper at about 6x your level when I measured it on my tank many tears ago. I personally wouldn't worry much about 2 ppb if you do not see a simple way to lower it. It may just be that you use copper-rich foods.

 

[Keithcorals]

Salinity looks to be higher than 35 ppt (assuming the Triton values are correct).

Should we be concerned that the triton test are not accurate ?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Should we be concerned that the triton test are not accurate ?

I don't know. I just don't have a way to independently know they are accurate.

 

[fjsdvm]

I am wondering if you were surprised at the Calcium level of 510ppm. Could you tell me what your average Ca test results are and the test you use. I received my Triton results 2 weeks ago and the Calcium was reported as 532ppm. I consistently test between 455-475ppm with the Red Sea Calcium Pro test. It may be possible that Red Sea tests for the free or available (unbound) Calcium ion where the Triton test is looking at total Calcium (bound with proteins/organics etc). If this is the case for Calcium it makes me wonder if this occurring for results with other ions (Mg+ / K+ / I- etc). If so, we are going to have to set up a new range of normals for the type of testing Triton is performing. If this is occurring, both Red Sea and Triton are returning accurate results. We are going to need the chemists and technical lab analysts to help us out. I would like to hear from the test manufacturers and the labs if you could reply.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There won't be enough organic chelators in typical aquaria to bind any significant amount of the calcium as there is just so much calcium there relative to organic matter. For example, this article sghows that total organic carbon in reef aquaria is about 1 ppm:

Feature Article: Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: an Initial Survey, Part I ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

So even if every bit of the organic carbon in the aquarium was a strong chelator (like EDTA), you could only bind 0.08% of the calcium in a typical aquarium.

Also, if kit testing didn't detect a substantial amount, folks would find lower levels in their aquaria than in their starting salt mixes, which doesn't appear to be the case.

Magnesium can bind to organics like calcium does, but potassium and iodide won't be bound appreciably even if there was a lot of natural organic matter.

So overall, while there are a number of interpretive issues wuith Triton testing (chemcial form and dissolved vs nanoparticulate, for example), there should not be any fundamental issues relating to chelating of calcium, magnesium, potassium, or iodide.

 

[64Ivy]

Salinity looks to be higher than 35 ppt (assuming the Triton values are correct)

I'm sure the test is accurate as I DID let my salinity rise just a bit due to a malfunction in my ATO and forgot to bring it down before collecting my samples. I usually have it on point and measure through a seawater calibrated refractor. As far as the copper, this is an issue that I've dealt with for a few years and have virtually torn the tank apart in search of the source. It is somewhere in the system itself as my raw water always test 0 for copper. At this point, I've pretty much given up. Nothing seems to be showing any symptoms of contamination (which, unfortunately, I'm all too familiar with) so as long as the level doesn't rise, I guess I won't worry about it too much.

I am wondering if you were surprised at the Calcium level of 510ppm

Actually, I am. And my Ca levels via Salifert also usually test out at around 470 or so.


As for my Lithium...I dunno. This is the first time I've ever had it tested so I guess I've got a little reading to do before I decide whether to go into a controlled panic or not. Is this a salt issue? Water? Any issue at all?

A one final thought regarding the copper problem here; has anyone ever suggested that there may be a correlation between copper levels (or other heavy metals) and various tank magnets? Not just cleaning magnets that some leave in their tanks 24/7 but with powerhead magnetic holders as well. Speaking for myself, I've got 4 Tunze 6105 holders, and 2 more magnetic frag holders on my display tank alone with 2 more magnets on holders in my 40g! None seem to show any obvious damage, but still...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The copper might come from some types of magnets if not sealed, but not all magnets contain copper. I have some magnets in my tank without issue, but that doesn't mean others won't have a problem.

As for my Lithium...I dunno. This is the first time I've ever had it tested so I guess I've got a little reading to do before I decide whether to go into a controlled panic or not. Is this a salt issue? Water? Any issue at all?
.

That lithium level is no concern (IMO). Likely the salt mix, and almost ever set I've seen for folks in the US have it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am wondering if you were surprised at the Calcium level of 510ppm. Could you tell me what your average Ca test results are and the test you use. I received my Triton results 2 weeks ago and the Calcium was reported as 532ppm. I consistently test between 455-475ppm with the Red Sea Calcium .

One way that calcium might be higher with Triton than with some kits is if there are fine particles of calcium carbonate in the water. A kit may or may not detect that, depending on whether the particles dissolve in the test itself.

Such particles appear to be substantial in skimmate so must be in the tank water, but I'm not sure at what concentration or whether their size gets through the Triton process of removing large particles.

 

[msderganc]

I've seen the same disparity between the Triton tests and my measured calcium levels. I have noticed that it's about 40ppm higher than my tests show. Both my Salifert and Red Sea showed 400ppm, while Triton had it at 438ppm in my last test. I've since let my Calcium drop to where the tests are reading about 365-370ppm, and I'm awaiting my second Triton result to come back. My corals look great still, and haven't had any issue with the lower calcium levels, so I'm guessing that the Triton test is probably the correct measure.

There must be something more than user error in this - is there something that titration would miss? I'll come back here after I get my results in a few days. Hopefully I can calibrate my tests to the ICP.

As a side note, is there any way to determine alkalinity from the results?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've seen the same disparity between the Triton tests and my measured calcium levels. I have noticed that it's about 40ppm higher than my tests show. Both my Salifert and Red Sea showed 400ppm, while Triton had it at 438ppm in my last test. I've since let my Calcium drop to where the tests are reading about 365-370ppm, and I'm awaiting my second Triton result to come back. My corals look great still, and haven't had any issue with the lower calcium levels, so I'm guessing that the Triton test is probably the correct measure.

There must be something more than user error in this - is there something that titration would miss? I'll come back here after I get my results in a few days. Hopefully I can calibrate my tests to the ICP.

As a side note, is there any way to determine alkalinity from the results?

No, there's no way to get alkalinity from the Triton tests.

As I mentioned, a titration could miss particulate CaCO3, if any is present, but you generally wouldn't want to count that.

FWIW, I not convinced there's any trend to be worried about.

With the uncertainty in kit testing (if not Triton testing), a large number of people would be expected to get higher kit results and a large number lower kit results. Same for using two different kits, which we are all well aware of the discrepancies with many different parameters.

One would need a larger and random survey of folks to determine if there is a systematic difference between Triton and kits. That may a good question for Ehsan (of Triton) as he probably has lots of such data.

 

[msderganc]

No, there's no way to get alkalinity from the Triton tests.

As I mentioned, a titration could miss particulate CaCO3, if any is present, but you generally wouldn't want to count that.

FWIW, I not convinced there's any trend to be worried about.

With the uncertainty in kit testing (if not Triton testing), a large number of people would be expected to get higher kit results and a large number lower kit results. Same for using two different kits, which we are all well aware of the discrepancies with many different parameters.

One would need a larger and random survey of folks to determine if there is a systematic difference between Triton and kits. That may a good question for Ehsan (of Triton) as he probably has lots of such data.

Thanks Randy - have you seen any tests where a user reported a higher Calcium (by test) than the Triton ICP? I've looked through a number of them, and I haven't at all. I would definitely be interested in Ehsan's opinion / data as well.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks Randy - have you seen any tests where a user reported a higher Calcium (by test) than the Triton ICP? I've looked through a number of them, and I haven't at all. I would definitely be interested in Ehsan's opinion / data as well.

No, but I've not been looking at that.