Embracing a new concept...and freeing our minds from preconception. Not easy.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

but my question would be the following: Is there not a lab here in the U.S. that could perform the same test they do over in Germany, to cut costs? Is the testing method/equipment something that's proprietary for Triton? If the premise is to test all these water based elements, and then to replenish what isn't there with what I can assume aren't proprietary elements... I'm surprised there isn't already a non-reef affiliated lab out there that could do the same.

There are labs in the US that run these sorts of tests, and have for many years. They are definitely not inexpensive.

Check ENC Labs - Chemical Analysis and Consulting for example.

 

[Chameleon]

While I think this new technique for analysing water is a great step forward in the hobby, I fail to grasp how it pertains to water changes. In truth water changes are doing exactly what a skimmer does which they still say one should use. They remove unknown X only to be replaced later with Y depending on test results. That being said they may be able to make an argument for using a specific salt mix that more closely resembles NSW based on their findings that have not been documented but have been demonstrated well in their successful reef, but to advocate no water changes still leaves room for the intangibles, specifically non-amphiphilic organics (things that are less readily skimmed out). We dont know what kinds of organics are released by our inhabitants and although carbon can be used to help remove things that aren't readily skimmed, again we run in to the issue of we are removing something that we don't know what it is only to potentially need to replace it based on our future test results.
All this leads to a scenario in which you account for one variable only introduce another which is a bad thing in a dynamic system and does not lead to stability very easily.
Conclusions:
1. This method would not account for things that accumulate above NSW values (this is where water changes are great!)
2. This method keeps an intangible: skimming leading way for a shift in parameter values that is highly dependent on a number of variables
3. This method measures at elemental resolution and not molecular compounds, therefore, bioavailability becomes a concern, maybe a metabolomiccs approach would be good as well.
4. If their supplements are metals, they are most likely salts, so by adding them you alter not only the metal of interest, but also the ion balance, and while this may be insignificant (not so insignificant when considering CaCl and sodium carbonate in 2 part) it isn't mentioned and hard to account for. (Water changes are great here!)

Basically I like the idea if you bring water changes back into the picture, but I think there are alternatives that can prove just as successful and require much less number chasing.

 

[uniquecorals]

One thing I'd like to know is actual cost, especially for U.S. customers. Though I know companies want to create buzz on their services and product, I hate it when something's announced with no actual time line and price.

I don't know enough of what they do, but my question would be the following: Is there not a lab here in the U.S. that could perform the same test they do over in Germany, to cut costs? Is the testing method/equipment something that's proprietary for Triton? If the premise is to test all these water based elements, and then to replenish what isn't there with what I can assume aren't proprietary elements... I'm surprised there isn't already a non-reef affiliated lab out there that could do the same.

If anything, I'd like to know what my levels are in general. I haven't read up on the Triton method enough to yet make a solid opinion on it, but I'd support anything that could help reefers achieve success.

As previously indicated, this is not a product announcement. It's really just to open a discussion about something we're excited about. We are talking about a technique, and the water tests associated with it. The water tests should be widely available within a month. The cost for the tests to consumers will be available soon.

Right now, it's just a discussion to get feedback, thoughts, and ideas...And your participation is greatly appreciated!

-Scott

 

[uniquecorals]

While I think this new technique for analysing water is a great step forward in the hobby, I fail to grasp how it pertains to water changes. In truth water changes are doing exactly what a skimmer does which they still say one should use. They remove unknown X only to be replaced later with Y depending on test results. That being said they may be able to make an argument for using a specific salt mix that more closely resembles NSW based on their findings that have not been documented but have been demonstrated well in their successful reef, but to advocate no water changes still leaves room for the intangibles, specifically non-amphiphilic organics (things that are less readily skimmed out). We dont know what kinds of organics are released by our inhabitants and although carbon can be used to help remove things that aren't readily skimmed, again we run in to the issue of we are removing something that we don't know what it is only to potentially need to replace it based on our future test results.
All this leads to a scenario in which you account for one variable only introduce another which is a bad thing in a dynamic system and does not lead to stability very easily.
Conclusions:
1. This method would not account for things that accumulate above NSW values (this is where water changes are great!)
2. This method keeps an intangible: skimming leading way for a shift in parameter values that is highly dependent on a number of variables
3. This method measures at elemental resolution and not molecular compounds, therefore, bioavailability becomes a concern, maybe a metabolomiccs approach would be good as well.
4. If their supplements are metals, they are most likely salts, so by adding them you alter not only the metal of interest, but also the ion balance, and while this may be insignificant (not so insignificant when considering CaCl and sodium carbonate in 2 part) it isn't mentioned and hard to account for. (Water changes are great here!)

Basically I like the idea if you bring water changes back into the picture, but I think there are alternatives that can prove just as successful and require much less number chasing.

OUTSTANDING questions and thoughts...This is the kind of questions that need to be asked about any and all new concepts that present themselves in the hobby as something "new."

I am going to get as much information as I can about exactly how trace elements in excess of NSW values are to be removed. You are correct...this needs clarification.

The point on skimming is well taken, and begs the question in general (not just as it pertains to triton) as to just how much skimming truly affects parameters like trace elements, and how it becomes a variable.

The point on bioavailability makes a lot of sense, and I would like to understand how significant a difference there is between elemental resolution versus molecular compounds....

As I've said before, I'm totally sold on the testing idea..I admit that I'm still having difficulties wrapping my head around the whole water change thing...I will give it the honest effort to be true to the technique, however, in the interest of discovery! In general, I am still of the opinion that, despite some possible questions about variables, it still eliminates many of them (although it could open some new ones, right?). As people who grow corals commercially, we find that variables do present a problem, and we try to eliminate as many as possible. This is all really cool stuff and will be fun to explore if it's down with the correct attitude and in the spirit of learning and fun.

 

[Acroholic]

You use one food that you're comfortable with, as multiple foods can introduce varying levels of - you guessed it- trace elements, minerals etc- all of which can potentially affect water chemistry.

I guess I will be another stick in the mud. This is going to be a huge sticking point for this method. ONE FOOD ONLY? What reef keeper feeds his reef one food only?

 

[uniquecorals]

I guess I will be another stick in the mud. This is going to be a huge sticking point for this method. ONE FOOD ONLY? What reef keeper feeds his reef one food only?

Tell me about it...I kind of think that the variables introduced by different foods would be far less significant than some of the other contributing factors we've mentioned...I'm communicating to you what was proffered...We'll see how it works in practice for us. I'm not 100% sold on that in practice...theoretically, it sounds logical...Again, much to learn about this method. The testing and the idea of trace element supplementation is pretty easy to grasp; it's some of the other practices (or lack thereof) that will require effort to get our collective heads around...So much to learn.

 

[stylaster]

Interesting ill be following along. I can see an issue with the sample waters from different reefs around the world. Im sure the values of elements probably vary from reef to reef island to island. I hope that an average is taken when trying to match your water quality with one from a reef location.

 

[uniquecorals]

Interesting ill be following along. I can see an issue with the sample waters from different reefs around the world. Im sure the values of elements probably vary from reef to reef island to island. I hope that an average is taken when trying to match your water quality with one from a reef location.

I think that's precisely the point...It would be cool to have a database of water samples from specific locales. Of course, then you could say it's a sample from "such-and-such a local on September 11, 2014 at low tide", etc. I suppose that there could be many things affecting the sample at different times, if you want to split hairs! The bottom line is that it gives us a pretty cool look at some characteristics of natural reefs, if tested.

-Scott

 

[shornik]

This sounds very interesting to me as a relatively new reefer, 5 months and 6 days as of today, not that I'm obsessively counting the days/months. By far the largest frustration I've encountered so far in the hobby is trying to figure out and understand the chemistry and how to fix what might be wrong, so something that could tell me, these are your parameters, this is what NSW is, here are the things to add to get your tank close to NSW would be great.

But.... I've been told and have read on many forums that it takes time for a new tank to stabilize - the old "after 6 months you can maybe start adding SPS" line I've heard quite a bit, and actually why I'm counting the days (Oh wait no I'm not) :neutral: So I guess one question I have is would this method be suitable for a "new" tank, or maybe more specifically when does a reefer get a "baseline" if our tanks are constantly changing/evolving?

Anyway, thanks for this post I'm looking forward to reading about how it works for you. Now to download the Unique Corals app for my iPhone so I can obsess about corals I eventually want in my tank.

 

[Chetrod]

I think it's am interesting method considering that we all want stability in a glass box. I'm no expert but in my experience when ever I do a water change I noticed a small cycle begin to happen. As far as the one food source thing I've always bought a bunch of different frozen foods soaked them in Ro water, drained it and blended it all together. Then I would put them in small ice cube trays so that I always had a variety for all inhabitant to munch on. Having a database of parameters a baseline to follow I think would be very cool.

 

[Electrobes]

There are labs in the US that run these sorts of tests, and have for many years. They are definitely not inexpensive.

Check ENC Labs - Chemical Analysis and Consulting for example.

Sweet Baby Jeebus Randy, I dang near spat out my cereal looking at those prices! Now I am super curious as to what *"affordable" service will constitute according Triton's company. Out of curiosity Scott... with your statement below, what's considered affordable? :sorry: I don't mean to sound rude, but considering how excited you are about this idea, consider just how many others will too.

*The data about your reef gleaned by the very affordable test is on a level never before seen in the hobby.

 

[Eienna]

I think it's am interesting method considering that we all want stability in a glass box. I'm no expert but in my experience when ever I do a water change I noticed a small cycle begin to happen. As far as the one food source thing I've always bought a bunch of different frozen foods soaked them in Ro water, drained it and blended it all together. Then I would put them in small ice cube trays so that I always had a variety for all inhabitant to munch on. Having a database of parameters a baseline to follow I think would be very cool.

You don't want to thaw and refreeze frozen foods. I can't remember where I saw it (I'll send the link if I find it again) but there's an article out discussing just that. Every time you thaw and refreeze it breaks down the proteins and fatty acids, which makes it less nutritious for the fish. That's why you want to get a good look at any frozens you're buying, as well, to make sure they haven't wholly or partially defrosted en route to your store's freezer.

 

[uniquecorals]

Sweet Baby Jeebus Randy, I dang near spat out my cereal looking at those prices! Now I am super curious as to what *"affordable" service will constitute according Triton's company. Out of curiosity Scott... with your statement below, what's considered affordable? :sorry: I don't mean to sound rude, but considering how excited you are about this idea, consider just how many others will too.

*The data about your reef gleaned by the very affordable test is on a level never before seen in the hobby.

Hey, no apologies necessary...Again, this thread wasn't started as a "product launch"- it's mainly to discuss the concepts and share our excitement about taking a look at something new! There are a lot of questions, many of which Joe and I want to get answers for before we start offering the tests and such on our website. The pricing will be available as soon as we finalize the logistics. We hope to have general availability around early to mid October. You're certainly right about wondering what "affordable" is..In a hobby where customers routinely pay hundreds of dollars for small frags of coral, lighting systems, pumps, and all the other minutiae associated with the hobby, "affordable" is a relative term!

That being said, once the testing is available, we'll try to price it at a level that the typical reefer could realistically afford to do several times of the course of a few months. It will be comparable to the pricing you cite from the other company, but different test parameters and a proprietary results interface. This is not as inexpensive a process as buying a $14 phosphate test kit, but when you look at the accuracy and potential usefulness of the data received, it could potentially save a lot of money that might be spent "chasing" parameters, etc. blindly...Again, all relative.

Again, the purpose of this thread was mealy to introduce what we know, see, experience, and feel with this method. To a certain extent, we will all be learning and utilizing the testing and techniques together...Should prove an interesting journey, filled with lots of good information, some discussion, a fair number of debates, and most importantly, successful outcomes for hobbyists.

Thanks so much for the feedback and opinions...they are the best way that we all can learn, and that our company can provide something that makes sense to our customers.

Regards,

Scott

 

[uniquecorals]

This sounds very interesting to me as a relatively new reefer, 5 months and 6 days as of today, not that I'm obsessively counting the days/months. By far the largest frustration I've encountered so far in the hobby is trying to figure out and understand the chemistry and how to fix what might be wrong, so something that could tell me, these are your parameters, this is what NSW is, here are the things to add to get your tank close to NSW would be great.

But.... I've been told and have read on many forums that it takes time for a new tank to stabilize - the old "after 6 months you can maybe start adding SPS" line I've heard quite a bit, and actually why I'm counting the days (Oh wait no I'm not) :neutral: So I guess one question I have is would this method be suitable for a "new" tank, or maybe more specifically when does a reefer get a "baseline" if our tanks are constantly changing/evolving?

Anyway, thanks for this post I'm looking forward to reading about how it works for you. Now to download the Unique Corals app for my iPhone so I can obsess about corals I eventually want in my tank.

Glad to have you in the hobby!

Please do consider whatever techniques or systems work best for you! What's being discussed here is just another means to an end. It's not meant to be a shortcut, a "tweak", or a miracle. It is yet another of the many potential roads we can choose to succeed with coral. We are going to embrace the system and see. Yes, we are reefers at the end of the day, and this is intriguing and fun for us, too! It's different, takes us way out of our comfort zone, forces us to look at things differently, and comes very close to that part of the hobby where you start hearing outrageous claims and dubious, vague information. Our hope is to put this to the test and see how it works for us. Having the tests available gives hobbyists an opportunity to have more information. If they choose to embrace all of Triton's methods, that's cool. If they choose to simply have the information, that's great, too. There is a lot to learn and much to share, and we will be as open as possible with our experiences, so we may all benefit.

That being said...good luck in the hobby! We hope you enjoy the UC mobile app...it's fun!

-Scott

 

[Electrobes]

Actually this leads me to another related question, maybe a question you've already asked them: I assume you would be shipping water samples to them? Is there any worry about water not being more immediately tested? Can the sample sit for a while before being tested, and still give accurate results?

 

[manueldm]

Scott can you share some details on how each one of the trace elements would be adjusted in the aquarium? Would we now have to purchase an additive for each one of the elements that is out of balance? I think this is an interesting concept and am keeping an open mind about it. Would love to see it replicated for the average hobbyist. You have mentioned a couple times in this thread that this method would reduce variables. Seems like this method actually increases the variables by several times. As always, great post and great discussion. Thanks.

 

[uniquecorals]

Actually this leads me to another related question, maybe a question you've already asked them: I assume you would be shipping water samples to them? Is there any worry about water not being more immediately tested? Can the sample sit for a while before being tested, and still give accurate results?

We were advised that, for the purposes of these types of water tests, there would be no significant degradation of the samples during transit. Randy, can you confirm this?

 

[Chameleon]

We will have to do a principle component analysis on various reef systems around the world as well as successful reef tanks to define the 'important' parameters they measure...

 

[uniquecorals]

Scott can you share some details on how each one of the trace elements would be adjusted in the aquarium? Would we now have to purchase an additive for each one of the elements that is out of balance? I think this is an interesting concept and am keeping an open mind about it. Would love to see it replicated for the average hobbyist. You have mentioned a couple times in this thread that this method would reduce variables. Seems like this method actually increases the variables by several times. As always, great post and great discussion. Thanks.

Thanks for participating...The trace elements are simply added in the amounts appropriate for your aquarium's size and needs based on the test results. You would purchase small quantities of the specific trace elements that would be necessary. I still think that this reduces a number of variables that we commonly encounter. Does it create new ones? That's the kind of stuff we want to learn more about! Like I said, the concept is pretty cool and we're excited to play with it. As coral growers, the ability to adjust things that are lacking in a more precise manner outweighs any other potential issues we might see as a result of embracing the method...Will be an interesting ride!

 

[Chameleon]

By the way I always thought the best way for the removal of organics would be a dialysis approach...an alternative to dilution is the solution mentality...