Alkalinity - Do Zoanthids and Paly's Like it Low or High (Or does it not matter at all)?

[that Reef Guy]

In Regards to Alkalinity do Zoanthids and Paly's Like it Low or High?

Or does it not matter at all?

One of my Aquariums has very Low Alkalinity - 6.7 and some of the Zoanthids are not Opening Up like they used to (Some have gotten Zoa Pox too) (The Paly's are all Doing Great though).

Another one of my Aquariums has High Alkalinity - 9.8 and the Zoanthids are doing much better in that Aquarium (No Zoa Pox either).

So is it safe to say that Zoanthids like High Alkalinity and Not Low Alkalinity.

Or is it all in my Imagination?

Could the Low Alkalinity be why I am getting Zoa Pox all of a Sudden?

Please Share your Experiences and also what Alkalinity you keep your Aquariums at.

 

[SeeingGreen]

Stability is more important from my experience.

 

[Akwarius]

Low alkalinity is likely to cause fluctuations in ph, which in turn may be the cause of zoa pox.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Low alkalinity is likely to cause fluctuations in ph, which in turn may be the cause of zoa pox.

My Alkalinity is usually 7.8 to 8.1

Everyone tells me not to "Chase PH" as it will only cause problems so I just leave it alone.

What do you think the PH should be?

 

[Akwarius]

My Alkalinity is usually 7.8 to 8.1

Everyone tells me not to "Chase PH" as it will only cause problems so I just leave it alone.

What do you think the PH should be?

Oh, I was responding to the above post where you said the alk was 6.7.

In terms of chemistry, ph shouldn't pose a problem when 1. alkalinity is stable and within range, 2. water is properly aerated, 3. nutrients/detritus are not in excess.

Zoas may not calcify, but are nonetheless 'stressed' by aberrant conditions. Stress leads to opportunistic fungal and bacterial disease.

 

[dannyab84]

From my experience and seeing many others they like it high. Mines at an 11 and I can't stop the growth. I have colonies of 200+ utter chaos. 300+ sunny ds. And ect and they are around a year old. When it goes down to 8-9 my Sps does great and colors up nicely however, the zoas slow down their growth tremdously. Hope my experience helps.

 

[TruRacr314x]

From my experience and seeing many others they like it high. Mines at an 11 and I can't stop the growth. I have colonies of 200+ utter chaos. 300+ sunny ds. And ect and they are around a year old. When it goes down to 8-9 my Sps does great and colors up nicely however, the zoas slow down their growth tremdously. Hope my experience helps.

+1....my growth seems to rapidly increase with higher alk. Unfortunately, my SPS does like high alk...so I keep mine around 9.5.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, many reef organisms get the carbon dioxide they need from bicarbonate. I do not know whether zooanthids do or not, but if they do like higher alkalinity, that may be why.

One need not calcify to like bicarbonate in the water.

 

[Akwarius]

FWIW, many reef organisms get the carbon dioxide they need from bicarbonate. I do not know whether zooanthids do or not, but if they do like higher alkalinity, that may be why.

One need not calcify to like bicarbonate in the water.

Research on this subject only turns up articles on ocean acidification.

What role (if any) does CO2 play in soft coral metabolism?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Research on this subject only turns up articles on ocean acidification.

What role (if any) does CO2 play in soft coral metabolism?

Any photosynthetic organism takes carbon dioxide and converts it into organic molecules that are used for energy and to build tissue. In the case of zooanthids, the zoox can supply some or all of the energy that the zooantid needs each day, depending on species, depth, brightness of the sun (i.e., cloudiness), etc.

Here are two articles on zooanthids getting energy from their symbiotic zoox, which are converted CO2 into other things:

DAILY BUDGETS OF PHOTOSYNTHETICALLY FIXED CARBON IN SYMBIOTIC ZOANTHIDS

from it:


DAILY BUDGETS OF PHOTOSYNTHETICALLY FIXED CARBON IN SYMBIOTIC ZOANTHIDSR. GRANT STEEN and L. MUSCATINE


Abstract


We tested the hypothesis that some zoanthids are able to meet a portion of their daily respiratory carbon requirement with photosynthetic carbon from symbiotic algal cells (= zooxanthellae). A daily budget was constructed for carbon (C) photosynthetically fixed by zooxanthellae of the Bermuda zoanthids Zoanthus sociatus and Palythoa variabilis.


Zooxanthellae have an average net photosynthetic C fixation of 7.48 and 15.56 µgC·polyp–1·day–1 for Z. sociatus and P. variabilis respectively. The C-specific growth rate (µc) was 0.215·day–1 for Z. sociatus and 0.152·day–1 for P. variabilis. The specific growth rate (µ) of zooxanthellae in the zoanthids was measured to be 0.011 and 0.017·day–1 for Z. sociatus and P. variabilis zooxanthellae respectively. Z. sociatus zooxanthellae translocated 95.1% of the C assimilated in photosynthesis, while P. variabilis zooxanthellae translocated 88.8% of their fixed C. As the animal tissue of a polyp of Z. sociatus required 14.75 µgC·day–1 for respiration, and one of P. variabiis required 105.54 µgC·day–1, the contribution of zooxanthellae to animal respiration (CZAR) was 48.2% for Z. sociatus and 13.1% for P. variabilis.


and


Carbon budgets in temperate anthozoan-dinoflagellate symbioses - Springer

Carbon budgets in temperate anthozoan-dinoflagellate symbioses
Abstract
Carbon budgets were modelled for temperate anthozoan-dinoflagellate symbioses involving the sea anemones Cereus pedunculatus (Pennant), Anthopleura ballii (Cocks) and Anemonia viridis (Forskäl), and the zoanthid Isozoanthus sulcatus (Gosse). Irradiance regimes experienced at 1.5 and 9 m on sunny and cloudy days in summer were assumed. Photosynthetic capacity (P max gross) and efficiency (α) were considerably higher in I. sulcatus than in the other Anthozoa. P max gross and α also differed in A. viridis from different localities. At 1.5 m on sunny days, zooxanthellae would require 1.80 to 5.89% of the carbon fixed in photosyn-thesis for respiration and growth, and translocate the remainder (94.11 to 98.20%) to the host. Productivity would decrease with increasing depth and cloud cover, resulting in a decrease in the potential availability of carbon for translocation. At 9 m on cloudy days, 37.82 to 87.84% of the carbon fixed in photosynthesis would be required for zooxanthella respiration and growth in C. pedunculatus, Anthopleura ballii and Anemonia viridis, leaving just 12.16 to 62.18% for translocation; the translocation rate would still exceed 95% in I. sulcatus. The potential contribution of zooxanthellae to the host's daily respiratory carbon requirements (CZAR) would be 72.6 and 72.1% in Anthopleura ballii and C. pedunculatus, respectively, at 1.5 m on sunny days, and would decrease to just 2.1 and 0.7%, respectively, at 9 m on cloudy days. These Anthozoa therefore require a heterotrophic source of carbon to survive. The CZAR in Anemonia viridis from different locations would be 140.6 to 142.9% at 1.5 m on sunny days, but would be <100% under the other assumed irradiance regimes. The CZAR in I. sulcatus would be 181.5% at 1.5 m on sunny days, and would only be <100% when at 9 m on cloudy days. Under favourable conditions, A. viridis and I. sulcatus are potentially autotrophic and may have surplus carbon available (15.69 to 43.89% of the gross photosynthetic production) for tissue biosynthesis, reproduction and storage. However, when field conditions are considered on an annual basis, the general need for heterotrophically-derived carbon in temperate Anthozoa is suggested.




[h=1][/h]

 

[Akwarius]

Guess my question was too general. I understand that zoox utilizes photosynthesis to convert carbon dioxide and water into glucose for the host coral. Here's a better question that pertains to this thread. Can soft coral draw upon the available inorganic carbon (alk) in the water column to supplement metabolism? My understanding was zoanthids needed a diet of organic carbon (carbohydrates), hence the mouth and digestive system.

 

[Akwarius]

Unless the carbon dioxide used during the photosynthesis is drawn directly from the alkalinity. Sorry to be such a chemistry noob.

 

[shornik]

FWIW, my Alk has been high (12.45 today is lowest in weeks) and I've noticed many of my 1 polyp Zoa's with new polyps for the first time.

 

[darrente]

Great Thread! Stability is first key. My zoas seem to like the alk at 10.5.

 

[clownfitch]

Well maybe this thread has helped me with a problem I have been having for the last 8 months or so. In my 2 year old softie tank all I ever test is nitrates and phosphates from time to time. Most of my zoanthid colonies have slowly diminished in size and don't look nearly as plump as they once were (before the coralline took off so bad) and the colonies have not produced many (if any at all) new polyps. I've never tested calcium or alkalinity in that tank as I just assumed those parameters would be fine. Especially since I do perform biweekly water changes. Well the coralline algae has been a pain to keep up with as it grows at an insane rate in that tank which could mean that my alkalinity is more than likely being depleted fairly quickly. I can't wait to get home now so I can test alkalinity!

 

[Aqua fire/medic]

Well maybe this thread has helped me with a problem I have been having for the last 8 months or so. In my 2 year old softie tank all I ever test is nitrates and phosphates from time to time. Most of my zoanthid colonies have slowly diminished in size and don't look nearly as plump as they once were (before the coralline took off so bad) and the colonies have not produced many (if any at all) new polyps. I've never tested calcium or alkalinity in that tank as I just assumed those parameters would be fine. Especially since I do perform biweekly water changes. Well the coralline algae has been a pain to keep up with as it grows at an insane rate in that tank which could mean that my alkalinity is more than likely being depleted fairly quickly. I can't wait to get home now so I can test alkalinity!

Keep us updated

 

[FishnFriendz]

Well maybe this thread has helped me with a problem I have been having for the last 8 months or so. In my 2 year old softie tank all I ever test is nitrates and phosphates from time to time. Most of my zoanthid colonies have slowly diminished in size and don't look nearly as plump as they once were (before the coralline took off so bad) and the colonies have not produced many (if any at all) new polyps. I've never tested calcium or alkalinity in that tank as I just assumed those parameters would be fine. Especially since I do perform biweekly water changes. Well the coralline algae has been a pain to keep up with as it grows at an insane rate in that tank which could mean that my alkalinity is more than likely being depleted fairly quickly. I can't wait to get home now so I can test alkalinity!

It is happening the same to me. My alk was roughly 7.5, and calcium 420, and some zoas don't look very good or no new heads for weeks. I am slowly increasing alk, and will see what happens...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Unless the carbon dioxide used during the photosynthesis is drawn directly from the alkalinity. Sorry to be such a chemistry noob.

Creatures that photosynthesize take up CO2 and use it to make organic compounds. They also release CO2 when they are not photosynthesizing. As mentioned in the above articles, zooanthids can can much, but sometimes not all of their organic carbon needs from their zoox. What they do not get from their zoox must come from foods or organic mmolecules they take up. They do not have any use for CO2 itself except as a substrate to do photosynthesis on.

Creatures that do not photosynthesize (or those that do, but when the light is not shining) do not generally take up CO2, but rather are constantly releasing it (like you do when you exhale). It is not a useful molecule for them as there is not much they can do with it.

Many sea cretures that photosynthesize get the needed CO2 from bicarbonate, and many get it directly from CO2/carbon acid in the water. Some do both.

Does that help?

 

[joshporksandwich]

Creatures that photosynthesize take up CO2 and use it to make organic compounds. They also release CO2 when they are not photosynthesizing. As mentioned in the above articles, zooanthids can can much, but sometimes not all of their organic carbon needs from their zoox. What they do not get from their zoox must come from foods or organic mmolecules they take up. They do not have any use for CO2 itself except as a substrate to do photosynthesis on.

Creatures that do not photosynthesize (or those that do, but when the light is not shining) do not generally take up CO2, but rather are constantly releasing it (like you do when you exhale). It is not a useful molecule for them as there is not much they can do with it.

Many sea cretures that photosynthesize get the needed CO2 from bicarbonate, and many get it directly from CO2/carbon acid in the water. Some do both.

Does that help?

I feel smarter after reading this. Don't understand it but thanks for helping. Do you have any articles on zoas?

 

[Akwarius]

Many sea cretures that photosynthesize get the needed CO2 from bicarbonate, and many get it directly from CO2/carbon acid in the water. Some do both.

Does that help?

Actually that's a huge insight. All this time I thought soft coral used carbon gas and stony corals used bicarbonate.

If what you say is true, the question remains (as it pertains to this thread), does elevating bicarb streamline photosynthesis for zoas resulting in better growth?