Need help with Zoas/Palys

zibba · Oct 14, 2014

This has been an ongoing problem for at least 9 months and I'm getting very frustrated and could use some expert advice.

Many of my zoas and palys have closed about half-way and/or have lost their "skirt" entirely. They hang around for a long time then eventually die 6+ months later. Some close up entirely and just wither away.

The most baffling thing is that the closed/shriveled polyps are right next to polyps that are flourishing.

I've tried iodine dips (once/week for 2-3 weeks) without success.

I've tried a chemiclean (liquid) treatment in a 5-gallon bucket for 48hrs without success.

I've tried dipping in revive without success.

I've tried cleaning them off gently with a toothbrush without success.

Here's the range of parameters from tests since May (I can go back further if necessary):
Alk: 7.5-8.4 (dKH)
Ca: 400-440
Mg: 1330-1500
K: 390-430
Phos: 0.012-0.08
Nitrate: 0.5-1.5

Have not run carbon or GFO since May but ran it from December 2013-January 2014 and from March-May 2014.

Here are some pictures to show you what I'm seeing:

Zoas in top section are closed down while others are fine:

Bouncing Blasto? by ..:.. EZ ..:.., on Flickr

DSC_9288 by ..:.. EZ ..:.., on Flickr

DSC_9289 by ..:.. EZ ..:.., on Flickr

Tried to get a close up of some closed polyps:

DSC_9290 by ..:.. EZ ..:.., on Flickr

More:

DSC_9295 by ..:.. EZ ..:.., on Flickr

Less than 5" away from the picture above:

Hornets by ..:.. EZ ..:.., on Flickr

The next thought was to try treating with Furan2 or to treat the entire tank with liquid chemiclean. Any thoughts, comments, or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Eric81 · Oct 14, 2014

I am sure you have already done this, but triple check your salinity....double check your calibration on you refractometer if necessary (let your tank water acclimate to room temperature...the same as your calibration fluid). When some of my zoas start doing that, particularly palys (cars, utters, etc.) I find that my salinity has crept up to 36/37. I am sure others will have other/better advice, but this is a problem that I have found in my systems from time to time.

zibba · Oct 14, 2014

Good advice. I do regularly calibrate the refractometer and check the salinity. I haven't noticed any swings and I don't log it every single time I check it (usually 1/wk) but it has been 1.025-1.026 (34-35) consistently.

Edit: Looking back at my log -- the last time it was low was Sept. 2013 (1.023). Has been 1.025-1.026 every time I've logged it since then.

Reef_a_holiks · Oct 14, 2014

Do you dose anything as far as like c balance or kent B-ionic? Any 2 part dosing to maintain calcium, alk, Mag, and Ph? Also what is your Ph looking like?

zibba · Oct 14, 2014

Reef_a_holiks said:
Do you dose anything as far as like c balance or kent B-ionic? Any 2 part dosing to maintain calcium, alk, Mag, and Ph? Also what is your Ph looking like?

Yes, I dose BRS 2-part ca/alk and acropower via bubble magnus doser. Mg is added manually as needed (I check levels the day after each water change) -- rarely do I have to add Mg. pH fluctuates between 8.08-8.3 according to my apex (I attached a graph).

I manually dose Iodine (few drops/wk) and occasionally add potassium if levels fall below 400.

Reef_a_holiks · Oct 14, 2014

zibba said:
Yes, I dose BRS 2-part ca/alk and acropower via bubble magnus doser. Mg is added manually as needed (I check levels the day after each water change) -- rarely do I have to add Mg. pH fluctuates between 8.08-8.3 according to my apex (I attached a graph).

I manually dose Iodine (few drops/wk) and occasionally add potassium if levels fall below 400.

Everything seems to be fine, any reason why you havent tried doing a chemiclean treatment to the tank itself? Ive had weird things like this happen to me and doing the treatment to the tank fixed everything. zoas have been great ever since. I always recommend a chemiclean treatment if all else checks in fine and zoas are still not doing well, and 90 percent of the time the chemiclean treatment brings them back.

You said that you have tried the chemiclean treatment but in a separate container, but maybe the issue is not on the zoas themselves but in your tank, so putting them back into your tank just introduces them back to the problem that is not letting them open and thrive.

I would double check all parameters, make sure lighting is not to intense or to little, and flow is not to strong or to weak. if everything checks in fine , ide recommend a chemiclean treatment.

Reef_a_holiks · Oct 14, 2014

Also make sure not any pest or fish are messing with the zoas. If the fish seem to not bother them. Look out at night when the lights are off and see if you catch anything on the troubled zoas.

zibba · Oct 14, 2014

My hesitation regarding the chemiclean is just a matter of it killing off the good gram-positive bacteria along with the bad and disrupting the rest of the corals that are doing well.

I was thinking it could be some predator as well but haven't found anything even while creeping around at night with flashlight. Only have a few fish in that tank---two clowns, a mccoskers, lawn mower blenny and a helfrichi firefish---and none of them bother the zoas. I've seen bristle worms in the tank, but I don't think those would cause such widespread damage.

Oscaror · Oct 14, 2014

I know this isn't helpful info, but your zoa garden is BEAUTIFUL!

swayd · Oct 14, 2014

Giant Amphipods!
I had a few zoas do this to me now and I was ready to throw in the towel. Until I found these little buggers. They werent huge but they were big enough to bother my zoas until they died, 3-6 months. Im not too sure if they actually eat the zoas but I think they irritate them until the zoas gives up and withers away. These guys are great at hiding and it will be kind of hard to spot them. I ended up taking out the rock and re-gluing my Zs and Ps on to other rocks, getting a six line and I cut down on my feeding. Everything now seems to be fine. Good luck and I hope someone else can chime in!

tuna_bullet · Oct 14, 2014

inspect them in the dark with a flash light, 2nd the pods or fish picking and some zoas taste better than others, also light some zoas like lots of light and some not so much, move them around and find there happy spot

FishGuyTy · Oct 14, 2014

Do you have Asterina stars in your tank? I had an out break of what I think was a few species. I thought they were cool at first, but after my coralline started disappearing and a few spas looked rough in the middle of my colonies, I became concerned. I got one harlequin shrimp for my 58 gallon tank and in less than a month, I never saw another again. Worth a try if nothing else. I now feed mine a choc chip sea star every few weeks to a month. Hope this helps.

joshporksandwich · Oct 14, 2014

What lights are you using? Any changes on lighting? I've seen that happen when i changed from leds to t5 on one of my frag tanks. Also it happened one time to a bunch of my zoas when my alk dropped under 7 due to not dosing anything or doing water changes in a few months.

zibba · Oct 15, 2014

Haven't seen any pests even after searching at night with a flashlight. Have seen some bristleworms occasionally but never on the zoas, only moving in and out of the sand for food.

Tank is lit by, and always has by, a MaxSpect Razor led. Alk has stayed above 7 as far as I know.

zibba · Oct 15, 2014

tuna_bullet said:
inspect them in the dark with a flash light, 2nd the pods or fish picking and some zoas taste better than others, also light some zoas like lots of light and some not so much, move them around and find there happy spot

Only fish are: two clowns, McCoskers wrasse, lawnmower blenny, helfrichi firefish, and red scooter blenny. I've never seen any of them express any interest in zoas.

I've also tried moving many of them around to different lighting and different flow without any success. It's so widespread that I really don't think it's a light or flow issue. Not certain though.

CoralHut · Oct 15, 2014

I had the same issue in a service account. We had to do a regimen of dosing hydrogen perioxide and that killed it off. I think it was a bacterial infection. Look online for dosing instructioms but we started off 1mL per 20 gallons every week upping the dosage to 5mL per 20 gallons at the end.

joshporksandwich · Oct 15, 2014

CoralHut said:
I had the same issue in a service account. We had to do a regimen of dosing hydrogen perioxide and that killed it off. I think it was a bacterial infection. Look online for dosing instructioms but we started off 1mL per 20 gallons every week upping the dosage to 5mL per 20 gallons at the end.

You mean dosing peroxide directly on the tank?

reefer999 · Oct 15, 2014

If you were running GFO and it was grinding a little and leaking into the tank then this could be an issue, I know you said you stopped running it, but there may still be traces of it. Some of it may be in your sump as detritus, within your tubing and pumps so I'd suggest cleaning those. Also did you get the zoas in a bad shape or healthy because this could be an influence as well. Lastly, I forget what these things are called, but they irritate zoas, when they extend their tentacle string to feed. I attached a picture of the thing I am talking about, you should get rid of these. Whenever I see one I get rid of it because they make some of my zoas close up. They usually are white, tan, or black, but if you let them stay they get covered in coralline algae which makes it harder to spot them.