Brook or Velvet..?

[evmibo]

Hello, I have some questions regarding what I believe is either brook or velvet.

I've lost 5 out of 9 fish so far. And that happened in a 7 day period. It's been two days since the last death, and I'm working on starting a QT as soon as possible.

Symptoms have been: occasional scratching on rocks, occasional head shaking, a couple small white dots on body and fins a couple weeks ago, some fish swimming in flow (some of my wrasses seemed to have always done this on occasion though). The more serious symptoms have been: before my female clown died she was covered in a white/creamy film, fin deterioration, "streamers" on caudal fin of the female clown. My starry Blenny was biting his tail a couple days before he died.

Overall all fish have been eating through this whole thing, and have for the most part (beside the female clown) looked healthy. Whatever it is it seems to affect all fish, but it's almost like it targets one fish at a time. At first I thought this was velvet, but now I think it might be brook.

Needless to say this has been a pretty big heartbreak. 1.5 years ago I had a power failure issue when I was traveling, lost nearly everything, this isn't as bad but it's a similar feeling. I want to help the remaining fish but want to be more confident with what this is.

On day 2 of freaking out and losing the second fish I went to the LFS and purchased the kick Ich + Rally combo (I know this is a bandaid, but I'm pretty desperate . I feel like Rally may have helped but not really sure... It may have made the symptoms less obvious, but fish continued to die 1 by 1.

I want to go fallow, does that work with keeping my 4 shrimp in the tank, or do they need to be removed too?

Can my bubble tip nems stay in the display with it being fallow?

What QT params are okay? Does the water need to cooler or warmer than usual? Salinity okay at 1.024 sg?

Is a 25-30g QT okay for the 4 remaining fish? Pink streak wrasse, super male Marjorie wrasse, male yellowfin wrasse, and a foxface.

Finally, I have access to metronidazole, can I dose that and copper in QT? This would essentially kill off velvet and brook, right?

Can anyone help? I hope I can get some advice!

 

[Brew12]

Hello, I have some questions regarding what I believe is either brook or velvet.

I've lost 5 out of 9 fish so far. And that happened in a 7 day period. It's been two days since the last death, and I'm working on starting a QT as soon as possible.

Symptoms have been: occasional scratching on rocks, occasional head shaking, a couple small white dots on body and fins a couple weeks ago, some fish swimming in flow (some of my wrasses seemed to have always done this on occasion though). The more serious symptoms have been: before my female clown died she was covered in a white/creamy film, fin deterioration, "streamers" on caudal fin of the female clown. My starry Blenny was biting his tail a couple days before he died.

Overall all fish have been eating through this whole thing, and have for the most part (beside the female clown) looked healthy. Whatever it is it seems to affect all fish, but it's almost like it targets one fish at a time. At first I thought this was velvet, but now I think it might be brook.

Needless to say this has been a pretty big heartbreak. 1.5 years ago I had a power failure issue when I was traveling, lost nearly everything, this isn't as bad but it's a similar feeling. I want to help the remaining fish but want to be more confident with what this is.

On day 2 of freaking out and losing the second fish I went to the LFS and purchased the kick Ich + Rally combo (I know this is a bandaid, but I'm pretty desperate . I feel like Rally may have helped but not really sure... It may have made the symptoms less obvious, but fish continued to die 1 by 1.

I want to go fallow, does that work with keeping my 4 shrimp in the tank, or do they need to be removed too?

Can my bubble tip nems stay in the display with it being fallow?

What QT params are okay? Does the water need to cooler or warmer than usual? Salinity okay at 1.024 sg?

Is a 25-30g QT okay for the 4 remaining fish? Pink streak wrasse, super male Marjorie wrasse, male yellowfin wrasse, and a foxface.

Finally, I have access to metronidazole, can I dose that and copper in QT? This would essentially kill off velvet and brook, right?

Can anyone help? I hope I can get some advice!

I'm really sorry you are going through this. Pictures would really help determine what the disease you are looking at could be.

As for going fallow, you can leave everything in your tank except the fish. Once the fish are gone, whatever parasite you are dealing with will eventually starve. Your inverts and nems won't serve as a host so you should leave them in.

I keep my QT at the same parameters as my DT. I feel it is more importantant to keep the fish comfortable and their stress reduced than to mess with temp and salinity in an effort to slow the parasite.

 

[Brew12]

Is a 25-30g QT okay for the 4 remaining fish? Pink streak wrasse, super male Marjorie wrasse, male yellowfin wrasse, and a foxface.

This is less than ideal, but it is much better than leaving them in the DT. Make sure you provide plenty of shelter (PVC fittings work great). I'm not a wrasse person but if any of those need sand add some into a plastic container and put that in the QT for them.

 

[evmibo]

I apologize, but the images are horrible. Hopefully this helps though. Again, she was basically covered in a thin, white/clear film. Occasional white spots, and the fins looked like they were kind of melting away. It got a little worse than this, but she kept eating the whole time. the 4th picture kind of shows the film like structure on her largest dark dorsal region.

That's good news about being able to keep shrimp and nems in the DT. That makes sense about temp and salinity in the QT.

I will have a cover over the QT to prevent wrasse from jumping, none of these guys remaining need sand.

 

[Brew12]

I apologize, but the images are horrible. Hopefully this helps though. Again, she was basically covered in a thin, white/clear film. Occasional white spots, and the fins looked like they were kind of melting away. It got a little worse than this, but she kept eating the whole time.

That's good news about being able to keep shrimp and nems in the DT. That makes sense about temp and salinity in the QT.

I will have a cover over the QT to prevent wrasse from jumping, none of these guys remaining need sand.

Well, that isn't ich or velvet. I wouldn't rule out velvet, but if it is velvet those white patches are a secondary infection. Even with brook, that would be a secondary infection. Another possibility would be that it is Lympho from the stress the fish are under.

I'm going to need to leave a recommended treatment to one of the real experts on here. Hopefully @Humblefish or @melypr1985 will see this soon. Definitely get that QT ready!

 

[Humblefish]

Since you already have Rally, following this protocol will treat all external parasites (including velvet & brook): https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437

Once the fish go into QT, treat with copper (I prefer Coppersafe) because of the wrasses.

We'll figure out whether or not your fish have a secondary infection once they are in QT. If they do, you'll need these three medications: Kanaplex, Furan-2, Metroplex. Since you already have metro, just getting Kanaplex or Furan will help. If you can't get both.

 

[evmibo]

So Humble, this sounds like Velvet to you? Will this method also rid them of ich and/or brook?

With the DT going fallow for a minimum of 76 days these guys should starve out in there, regardless of what it is, right?

I dosed the Rally on the into the DT already, just finished the big bottle today actually. So, is doing a Kordon Rid-Ich + (what I have access to) bath after the freshwater bath alright? (I have Methylene Blue on it's way too.)

The metronidazole is coming from a vet clinic, and kanaplex will be here soon. Kanaplex is a seachem product so I assume there will be directions applicable to me, but what about the metronidazole? What are dosing directions for that?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Humblefish]

So Humble, this sounds like Velvet to you? Will this method also rid them of ich and/or brook?

The timeline of deaths and fish swimming into the flow of a PH sounds like velvet. However, this method treats velvet, brook and ich to boot.

With the DT going fallow for a minimum of 76 days these guys should starve out in there, regardless of what it is, right?

Yes. Technically 6 weeks fallow covers velvet & brook. However, being you are going through all this, then now is a good time to hit the reset button on your DT and starve all diseases out of there (including ich.) Moving forward, you can QT all new fish purchases to avoid this ever happening again.

I dosed the Rally on the into the DT already, just finished the big bottle today actually. So, is doing a Kordon Rid-Ich + (what I have access to) bath after the freshwater bath alright? (I have Methylene Blue on it's way too.)

You want to administer either a formalin or acriflavine (Rally) bath after the FW dip. See links below.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/formalin.290925/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/acriflavine.282887/

The metronidazole is coming from a vet clinic, and kanaplex will be here soon. Kanaplex is a seachem product so I assume there will be directions applicable to me, but what about the metronidazole? What are dosing directions for that?

Assuming its 100% metronidazole powder, dosage is 500 mg for every 20-40 gallons. It's hard to overdose the stuff, but I typically start with the low range and work my way up (if needed).

 

[evmibo]

So helpful! Thank you so much! Ill probably have some more questions soon

I'm QT'ing everything now. I've always been too lazy because I've honestly just gotten lucky for the last 8 years. A loss like this makes me realize how worth it it actually is...

 

[melypr1985]

For the record, even though I'm late to the party, I tend to lean toward velvet. If you follow humble's protocol, you should be able to help your fish no matter which disease it is.

 

[evmibo]

Thanks Meredith.

Any tips on capturing my fish? Going to be tough. Also, I just realized I don't have a copper testkit. Which is preferred?

 

[Brew12]

Thanks Meredith.

Any tips on capturing my fish? Going to be tough. Also, I just realized I don't have a copper testkit. Which is preferred?

The first post on this thread tells you which test kits work with each common copper product.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-test-kits.257924/

 

[melypr1985]

Any tips on capturing my fish? Going to be tough.

My tip isn't going to be what you want to hear, but take everything out into bins or buckets, drain the water down low and just scoop them out. It ends up being much quicker than trying to net them out of a fully stocked reef for several days and actually less stress on them.

 

[evmibo]

So, this is the busiest time of the year for me, and after our initial discussion about 10 days ago I was finally able to get the fish into the QT yesterday. So March 15 is day 1. I drained 60 gallons out of the display and it was relatively easy to catch the fish after that.

Unfortunately, I made an error during the FW dip and left the fish in for 20 mins. After reading and reading about this whole process I go and mix up times, I feel so stupid. Breathing was fine, then took a very quick turn for the worst, that's when I realized FW was supposed to be 5 minutes. I switched everyone over to the Rally/acriflavine bath asap. Everyone was fine except the Marjorie wrasse who was struggling to breathe. I almost had him revived but it was too late. Again, I feel so stupid and can't believe I did that..........

Coppersafe was added to the QT before the fish were added, and has been right around 1.5 ppm (darker than 1.0ppm and lighter than 2.0ppm on the color chart of the API copper test kit).

 

[evmibo]

Update: So today is day 11 in QT. The 3 fish are eating like pigs . No signs of anything that I can see on any of the fish. Cu (Copper safe) has been stable at somewhere between 1.0-2.0 ppm (API testkit). I added a couple extra mL's about a week ago to make sure it stays above 1.0ppm. Ammonia badge is the slightest shade of yellow but not to the color of the yellow "SAFE" label. This is my first time using the badge, it's great.

 

[Humblefish]

Update: So today is day 11 in QT. The 3 fish are eating like pigs . No signs of anything that I can see on any of the fish. Cu (Copper safe) has been stable at somewhere between 1.0-2.0 ppm (API testkit). I added a couple extra mL's about a week ago to make sure it stays above 1.0ppm. Ammonia badge is the slightest shade of yellow but not to the color of the yellow "SAFE" label. This is my first time using the badge, it's great.

I would get the copper close to 2.0ppm and keep it there. Minimum therapeutic dosage for chelated copper is actually 1.5ppm.

 

[evmibo]

I would get the copper close to 2.0ppm and keep it there. Minimum therapeutic dosage for chelated copper is actually 1.5ppm.

It's been closer to 2.0 but I say 1-2 because it's somewhere in there, and it's a little difficult to distinguish exactly where it is. I was a little worried about it being too low though, and just added 5mL and retested after seeing your comment.

[I hover the vial over the white test paper]

 

[Humblefish]

@evmibo That looks good. Keep it there.

 

[melypr1985]

Agreed. It looks good to me too.

 

[evmibo]

@Humblefish
@melypr1985

How often do you do water changes during the copper treatment? Copper levels are consistent and ammonia is still safe, but the glass walls have a coat of ???. Thinking about cleaning it off and doing a 5-10g water change... Thoughts?

By the way, today is day 23 of copper.