Fallow periods: Going Fishless

DerekC · Feb 17, 2017

Agreed.

saltyhog · Feb 19, 2017

@Humblefish. I just had an unfortunate encounter with Velvet. I was QT'ing 2 wrasse and a small Atlantic Blue tang. Two days before the last transfer one of the wrasse became shy and hid in the PVC fittings. He did come out to eat but the morning of the last transfer he was dead. I transfered the other two fish to my cycled QT and two days later the other wrasse started to act the same way. I could not find my copper and I knew CP was not an option for a wrasse and within 36 hours the wrasse died. The second one had a typical appearance for Velvet, the first one didn't.

The tang is still ok and I'm going to hopefully get CP tomorrow (not many pharmacy keep it in stock...we don't get much malaria around here..LOL).

My questions. After treating for 30 days with CP in the cycled QT does it then need to remain fallow for 6 weeks before use again? The other question, has anyone every tried hydroxychloroquine? It is commonly used to treat Lupus/autoimmine diseases and all pharmacies carry it. Lastly, what we can usually get here is CP tablets 500mg and 250 mg equivalent to 300mg and 150 mg respectively of Chloroquine base. Would 4 tablets be appropriate for my 29 gallon QT?

Humblefish · Feb 19, 2017

saltyhog said:
My questions. After treating for 30 days with CP in the cycled QT does it then need to remain fallow for 6 weeks before use again? The other question, has anyone every tried hydroxychloroquine? It is commonly used to treat Lupus/autoimmine diseases and all pharmacies carry it. Lastly, what we can usually get here is CP tablets 500mg and 250 mg equivalent to 300mg and 150 mg respectively of . Would 4 tablets be appropriate for my 29 gallon QT?

With velvet, all tomonts will release dinospores within 2 weeks so 30 days of CP is more than sufficient to cleanse your QT of the infestation.

Alprazo tried hydroxychloroquine on velvet a few times, but for some reason it never worked.

CP dosage is 40mg/gal, so 4 of the 500mg tablets (with 300mg usable Chloroquine base) would be about right.

You can get CP powder from this source (but I think you might still need a Vet Rx): http://www.diamondbackdrugs.com

You can search for an Aquatic Vet in your area by using this link: http://www.aquavetmed.info

HTH; and THANK GOD you QT.

saltyhog · Feb 19, 2017

I don't mind crushing the tablets as I can write a prescription for them my self with no questions asked. I hate I got caught with my pants down. I haven't seen velvet since the first year I started in the hobby 5 years ago, should have had copper on hand! I will, as soon as my order gets here. I sure wish wrasse did ok with CP.

Humblefish · Feb 19, 2017

saltyhog said:
I don't mind crushing the tablets as I can write a prescription for them my self with no questions asked. I hate I got caught with my pants down. I haven't seen velvet since the first year I started in the hobby 5 years ago, should have had copper on hand! I will, as soon as my order gets here. I sure wish wrasse did ok with CP.

Velvet is running rampant right now; so much so that I've considered dissuading people from using TTM for the time being.

Which wrasses can tolerate CP is still a puzzle. For example, that Yellow-Flanked Fairy Wrasse you got from me went thru CP just fine. But it appears flasher wrasses and especially Halichoeres genus are very intolerant. So out of an abundance of caution, I'm telling people to only use copper on wrasses until I get it figured out.

TherealDusky · Feb 24, 2017

Im a newbie in this hobby, but I ll add another thought to this debate :
The ich parasite doesn't live for 30 days on the fish, I can't remember the exact number, but I thought most fall off after 3 days with exceptions being there for 7?
If you have a small tank, wouldn't it be a lot easier to treat for a week +1 day with copper, transfer the fish to a new, uninfested tank, or even a small bucket. Drain your hospital tank, fill it with 75 degree ( celcius) water to make sure everything is dead, then put your fish back in with a cured piece of LR that you can trust?( Or a piece of dead rock and something like ATM colony)?
Just a thought

edosan · Feb 24, 2017

TherealDusky said:
Im a newbie in this hobby, but I ll add another thought to this debate :
The ich parasite doesn't live for 30 days on the fish, I can't remember the exact number, but I thought most fall off after 3 days with exceptions being there for 7?
If you have a small tank, wouldn't it be a lot easier to treat for a week +1 day with copper, transfer the fish to a new, uninfested tank, or even a small bucket. Drain your hospital tank, fill it with 75 degree ( celcius) water to make sure everything is dead, then put your fish back in with a cured piece of LR that you can trust?( Or a piece of dead rock and something like ATM colony)?
Just a thought

Fishless is mainly for reef tanks, if you do that with corals, all corals will die.
Corals are "the problem" in your idea, if not corals are present, then you have a lot of alternatives to erradicate ich.

TherealDusky · Feb 24, 2017

edosan said:
Fishless is mainly for reef tanks, if you do that with corals, all corals will die.
Corals are "the problem" in your idea, if not corals are present, then you have a lot of alternatives to erradicate ich.

Sorry, I meant :treat in a hospital tank and then boil the hospital tank etc

Just a method of quicker removing the fish from the copper water and giving them some bacteria to avoid a lot of water changes?

edosan · Feb 24, 2017

TherealDusky said:
Sorry, I meant :treat in a hospital tank and then boil the hospital tank etc

Just a method of quicker removing the fish from the copper water and giving them some bacteria to avoid a lot of water changes?

You mean, treat the fish with cooper and after treatment take the fish out to another clean tank? Sure will work if you did the treatment right and the fish have no ich any longer.

Brew12 · Feb 24, 2017

TherealDusky said:
Sorry, I meant :treat in a hospital tank and then boil the hospital tank etc

Just a method of quicker removing the fish from the copper water and giving them some bacteria to avoid a lot of water changes?

I like to treat with copper for 14 to 18 days and then move the fish to a clean tank. You don't need boiling water. Once the fish are out I dump a little bleach in it and let the filters run for a few hours then drain the tank and let it dry for a few days. Easy and effective.

Humblefish · Feb 24, 2017

Brew12 said:
I like to treat with copper for 14 to 18 days and then move the fish to a clean tank. You don't need boiling water. Once the fish are out I dump a little bleach in it and let the filters run for a few hours then drain the tank and let it dry for a few days. Easy and effective.

+1 This method works to eradicate ich & velvet provided:

You monitor your Cu level daily, to ensure it remains therapeutic for at least 10 days before transferring.
You don't reuse anything from the treatment tank for the transfer tank.
The transfer tank is housed at least 10 feet away from the treatment tank: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/

These are all fine little points, but there is no margin for error doing it this way. Also remember you still have to go fallow in the DT itself for whatever disease you are treating for in QT: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods-going-fishless.190324/

melypr1985 · Feb 27, 2017

ltrace said:
I Have been going fallow in my DT for 20days. This is green stuff starting to grow on a rock and something different is growing on the plate coral. What are they and how to take care of them?
Phosphate 0.0, Alkalinity 9.1, SG 1.025, ph 8.2, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 3-5, Ammonia 0, Calcium 420, Mg 1560.

It looks like algae, but this post would be better in the reef discussion forum where there will be better views from people that know a lot about it.

ltrace · Feb 27, 2017

How do I get it to that forum?

melypr1985 · Feb 27, 2017

ltrace said:
How do I get it to that forum?

It's already done sweetie. Click this link:
Algae problems in Fallow tank

RyanYWG · Mar 28, 2017

To quote Humblefish on page 1 of this thread "I want to make it clear that this 72 days has only been encountered once; one study involving a single strain of ich. In most other studies, 7-14 days has been "the norm" for theront release."

Anyone know how many "other" studies were done, that confirmed the 7-14 day theront release? 1, 10, 100 studies (Eg. If 1 study it would make it 50% chance you had the 76 day strain vs. 7-14 day strain. 10 would make it 90% for the 7-14 day strain. 100 would make it 99% for the 7-14 day strain)? Obviously the more studies to support 7-14 days would be better.

Humblefish · Mar 28, 2017

@RyanYWG There are dozens of studies available on Google Scholar. Table 1 (below) contains relevant info from 8 of them; "Tomont" indicates the range when theronts first started emerging to when the last one was released (and thus the tomont stage ends.)

Taken from here: http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html

Gwitness · Mar 28, 2017

So what are the odds of even having the Tomont that lasts 72 days then??

RyanYWG · Mar 28, 2017

@Humblefish Perfect. Thanks. Just the information I was looking for.

When clicking the link, I'm getting a: Bandwidth Limit Exceeded - The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to the site owner reaching his/her bandwidth limit. Please try again later.

Looks like their whole site is down though as I also tried: http://www.atj.net.au/marineaquaria/fishdiseases.html.

I will just try the site later. Hopefully it will be accessible then. I'm interested to see how many related studies were done in total. Thanks.

Humblefish · Mar 28, 2017

Gwitness said:
So what are the odds of even having the Tomont that lasts 72 days then??

Probably very slim. There is also the possibility that low water temp was to blame for the 72 day variant: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/marine-ich-and-temperature.232825/

Or the fact that the study was done using a sterile flask (no bacteria): https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/marine-ich-and-temperature.232825/page-2#post-3367199

However, I've seen enough "shortened fallow failures" to make me wonder, so I continue to advocate a 76 day fallow period because those seem to have the highest success rate.

Gwitness · Mar 28, 2017

Humblefish said:
Probably very slim. There is also the possibility that low water temp was to blame for the 72 day variant: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/marine-ich-and-temperature.232825/

Or the fact that the study was done using a sterile flask (no bacteria): https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/marine-ich-and-temperature.232825/page-2#post-3367199

However, I've seen enough "shortened fallow failures" to make me wonder, so I continue to advocate a 76 day fallow period because those seem to have the highest success rate.