Ich Discussion and treatment options.

[glb]

A 3 degree temp swing isn't going to kill a fish; especially a species as hardy as a clownfish. I also quite honestly doubt that ich can kill a clown. Only thing two things I can think of would be Brooklynella or possibly Marine Velvet disease. Was this a newly acquired clownfish? They are very susceptible to brook.

I've lost four in the past few months after keeping them successfully for years. I'm starting to think the LFS I'm buying them from may be the problem. Does Brook stay alive in the water like ich does?

 

[Humblefish]

I've lost four in the past few months after keeping them successfully for years. I'm starting to think the LFS I'm buying them from may be the problem. Does Brook stay alive in the water like ich does?

Yes, it has a life cycle similar to ich with both an encysted and free swimming stage. Fallow period to starve it out is 6 weeks.

 

[alg]

I've always used copper (Cupramine) to quarantine for ich, treating for 30 days at the recommended concentration, and testing daily. Most of the time this seems to work, but lately I've had two QT tanks where, when I bring the copper back down and observe the fish before adding them to my DT, they re-develop ich.

So I've been reading all of @Humblefish 's threads on ich, and I keep coming back to these two points:

• Theronts are the only stage affected by chemical treatments (ex. copper) and hyposalinity.
  
• The average time [for theronts to be released] is 7-14 days; however in at least one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts.

To me, this means that if we want to be 100% sure that the fish will be ich free, then any treatment has to last for AT LEAST 72 days to account for possible lingering encysted tomonts (and that's discounting anecdotal reports of ich infecting fish after longer than that, I saw one report that indicated a facility had QT'd fish in copper for 72 days and left the main tank fallow for 90 and ich still returned).

I wonder if there is an alternative. If I'm understanding the science correctly -- and that's a big if! -- I believe we should be able to do a combination of copper and TTM to limit the treatment time. Here is my logic:

1. Copper attacks the free swimming theronts. That means, at the right levels, copper *should* kill the theronts before they attach to the fish.
2. A fish infected with ich is infected with the trophonts, which feed for 3-7 days before dropping off.
3. Therefore, after ~7 days, a fish in copper should be free of trophonts, and no theronts should be reattaching.
4. Therefore, if the fish is transferred after ~7 days from the tank with copper to a new tank that has just been set up (with known-clean water, equipment, etc), then fish should have no ich on it and should not be able to be reinfected.
5. The old tank that had been running copper could be sanitized and allowed to dry to eliminate all possible encysted tomonts.

The primary flaw I see in this is, the copper may not kill all of the theronts, in which case, the fish could be reinfected in the copper, and those trophonts could then be transported to the new tank. Another potential flaw is, while the average trophont may feed 3-7 days, are there reports of trophonts feeding for longer? I have not seen any studies.

I like the prospect of limiting my fishes' exposure to copper, but I haven't come across anyone ever talking about QT'ing for ich this way. Has anyone else tried this / heard of someone trying this? Any insight into whether copper will kill ALL theronts or just MOST? Do most people watch their fish in the same QT after treating with copper, or does anyone transfer to a new tank after standard treatment?

 

[Humblefish]

@alg Your logic is very sound. I've actually been working on a 10 day QT treatment protocol for the past two years. I've been combining chemicals to see which are compatible and which have negative interactions. I've been using Chloroquine phosphate in lieu of copper, however.

I think I've got the "magic formula" figured out, but I am still experimenting with diseased fish. I don't want to publish my findings until I am sure of this.

 

[alg]

I'll be very excited to read your findings!

 

[Breakthecycle2]

@alg Your logic is very sound. I've actually been working on a 10 day QT treatment protocol for the past two years. I've been combining chemicals to see which are compatible and which have negative interactions. I've been using Chloroquine phosphate in lieu of copper, however.

I think I've got the "magic formula" figured out, but I am still experimenting with diseased fish. I don't want to publish my findings until I am sure of this.

Can you explain more about Chloroquine phosphate?

 

[edosan]

Wonder if hydroxy chloriquine will work the same or better?

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Wonder if hydroxy chloriquine will work the same or better?

What is it?

 

[Humblefish]

Can you explain more about Chloroquine phosphate?

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/

 

[edosan]

What is it?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine

Is expensive, but i can get my hands on it

 

[Breakthecycle2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine

Is expensive, but i can get my hands on it

Is it reef safe?

 

[edosan]

Is it reef safe?

Suppouse to be similar to CP, or better

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Suppouse to be similar to CP, or better

So not reef safe Im taking it?

 

[edosan]

Probably is reef safe if you add it to the food and fishes still eating. Testing now. Too soon to tell but seems to be working. In youtube there is a guy that put cp to the food, and he claims no more ich.

I have a yellow tang and hepatus with ich. Took 1 pill, 1 nori sheet and some dry brine shrimp. I add a bit of water to dilute the pill and soak nori and bs. and feed them since yesterday (all tank)
The yellow show very little ich compare to yesterday an the hepatus also is showing a bit less, will see.

 

[shannonwread]

So where can we get some?

 

[edosan]

So where can we get some?

Some what? HydroxyChloroquine?...any pharmacy probably. Common name, Plaquenil or Plaquinol. Do not know if you need a med prescripction, I believe you do. It is commonly used for humans on lupus, arthritis and rheumatism

The challenge is how to remove the bitter, I am having a hard time trying, unsuccesfully...any advice will be great.

 

[shannonwread]

I think I'm going to do a 50% water change and put heavier filters in and do alot of praying.

 

[Arijit]

Good post.. Here it is I am sharing my experience.
I am from Kolkata(India), temparature near about 25-26°c.
2-3 weeks before I have faced ich problem on my baby regal tang just on the next day I purchased from LFS.
I have done lot of research. I have gone through the articles about copper treatement & fresh water dip etc etc.
But freshwater dip is not the RIGHT treatement because the ich is present in the tank and I choose to raise temparature by keep my all lights on.
But after coming from office the ich spreadout on my tang body fully.
So raising temp is not effective.

So what I suggest-
1. Donot keep the lights on full day.
2. Must keep the lights on atleast 7-8 hours because your new fish is very stressed and he needs to know the full place and meet the other fishes and that makes him stress free.
3. Donot come near the tank always.it will stress your fish.keep him alone as much as possible.
4. I have prepare a special food ( green leaf+ garlic+ shrimp: boiled in water, paste and serve little.)
5. On the next day the all ich gone.
6. Change 40% water change and keep the salinity slightly low.
7. Alternate the food ( marine s, shrimp, boiled carrot).
Now after 2-3 weeks, I can say that he is happy now and growing with his tank friends

 

[edosan]

Thanks for sharing!
But carefull, ich is probably not gone in your tank, just not visible right know.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/understanding-ich.188770/

 

[Arijit]

I will keep on mind and keep you posted here if they come back again.