Purple tang with ich (plz help)
- Thread starter Miguel a Villalobos
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4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
Well in a reef tank you'll need to remove all fish and treat them in a hospital or quarantine tank for 30 days in copper or CP. Coppersafe is my recommendation.
Buy an ammonia badge by seachem to monitor ammonia and don't use any nitrate, nitrite, ammonia detoxifiers (such as prime or amquel) with copper or other medications.
Next thing is to be sure it's not velvet. It sounds like this came about very quickly, and if that's the case my guess is that you actually have velvet. This disease can wipe your tank out in as little as two days. You'll want to act quickly.
Buy an ammonia badge by seachem to monitor ammonia and don't use any nitrate, nitrite, ammonia detoxifiers (such as prime or amquel) with copper or other medications.
Next thing is to be sure it's not velvet. It sounds like this came about very quickly, and if that's the case my guess is that you actually have velvet. This disease can wipe your tank out in as little as two days. You'll want to act quickly.
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
Also you'll need to keep the display tank fish-free for 76 days to starve out the parasite before returning the fully quarantined fish.
mcarroll
10K Club member
What's the recommended plan to keep these fish healthy in the first place/to keep them from getting re-infected by this or something else later on?
Treatment is a lot of work, not always a sure thing, and only temporary. Once it's done, the fish eventually has to "go home".
Sending the fish back into the same conditions post-treatment where he initially got sick is probably not a recipe for long term success.
Tangs tend to be high-stress fish anyway. Purple Tangs are one of the more-notorious of them. (Along with the Hippo and Achilles.)
So this tends to be a very good checklist to go over to make sure you are providing the most stress-free environment you can:
Circular 919/FA005: Stress - Its Role in Fish Disease
Focus on offering high quality food, especially live foods and whole-frozen seafoods. Whole-frozen foods in general are preferred to processed foods. Probiotic foods are better than non-probiotic formulations. Check out some posts by @Paul B as he's a fish-feeding nerd – he's got all kinds of good ideas and related DIY gadgets.
Foods high in carotenoids should be emphasized as these boost the immune system.
Minimize feedings of dry or freeze-dried foods. Re-constitute them and/or soak them in some fish oil if you don't have other options.
Treatment is a lot of work, not always a sure thing, and only temporary. Once it's done, the fish eventually has to "go home".
Sending the fish back into the same conditions post-treatment where he initially got sick is probably not a recipe for long term success.
Tangs tend to be high-stress fish anyway. Purple Tangs are one of the more-notorious of them. (Along with the Hippo and Achilles.)
So this tends to be a very good checklist to go over to make sure you are providing the most stress-free environment you can:
Circular 919/FA005: Stress - Its Role in Fish Disease
Focus on offering high quality food, especially live foods and whole-frozen seafoods. Whole-frozen foods in general are preferred to processed foods. Probiotic foods are better than non-probiotic formulations. Check out some posts by @Paul B as he's a fish-feeding nerd – he's got all kinds of good ideas and related DIY gadgets.
Foods high in carotenoids should be emphasized as these boost the immune system.
Minimize feedings of dry or freeze-dried foods. Re-constitute them and/or soak them in some fish oil if you don't have other options.
mcarroll
10K Club member
If that's as good as it gets....
If he's still eating well, do what I said and focus on feeding live foods and high-carotenoid foods as much as possible. He needs to rebuild his damaged cells AND mount a concerted immune response.
Follow the directions on the product and hope for the best as far as that's concerned. I assume they'd be sued if it didn't work as directed since Hikari is a pretty large brand....but it's hard to be sure.
As for the med you have, the idea is probably not that it cures the fish or even that it wipes out the problem. The idea is usually just that it gives your fish enough of a reprieve from the parasites that their immune system can recover.
You might take a look here:
FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot ...
and here:
SRAC 0476: Ich (White Spot Disease)
...before proceeding. Post here if you have any questions from those docs.
If he's still eating well, do what I said and focus on feeding live foods and high-carotenoid foods as much as possible. He needs to rebuild his damaged cells AND mount a concerted immune response.
Follow the directions on the product and hope for the best as far as that's concerned. I assume they'd be sued if it didn't work as directed since Hikari is a pretty large brand....but it's hard to be sure.
As for the med you have, the idea is probably not that it cures the fish or even that it wipes out the problem. The idea is usually just that it gives your fish enough of a reprieve from the parasites that their immune system can recover.
You might take a look here:
FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot ...
and here:
SRAC 0476: Ich (White Spot Disease)
...before proceeding. Post here if you have any questions from those docs.
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
Note: all of this is irrelevant if you have velvet, and unfortunately this advice will cause massive fish casualties.
How soon did you see these spots creep up? Zebrasoma tangs are rarely heavily afflicted by ich, I would say velvet is far more likely. A photograph or two would be very helpful.
How soon did you see these spots creep up? Zebrasoma tangs are rarely heavily afflicted by ich, I would say velvet is far more likely. A photograph or two would be very helpful.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Notable quotes from the Ich Attack website:
Ich Attack®
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004313540600683X
But it might also be worth reading more on....all I have is that abstract so we know "it's known". We're assuming Kordon has done their homework.
Ich Attack®
- 100% Organic Herbals based on Naphthoquinones
- The therapeutic action of Ich-Attack on protozoan and other infections is due to its binding with cytoplasmic structures within the cell of the infecting organisms.
- Kordon Ich-Attack as an organic herbal treatment is focused in its effectiveness in treating protozoan, fungal, and dinoflagellate infections. It may be an inhibitor, but is not an eliminator of infectious viruses, bacteria and multi-celled organisms.
- However, the success of this treatment (as with all effective treatments) is dependent upon starting treatment as soon as infections are anticipated or noted. It often can be late in the extent of infection when it is noted in fishes, which may be too late to save them. As an example, for some species of white spot disease (Ich), the infection usually starts unnoticed in the mouth, gills, and nostrils of the fish, only later appearing on the outside surface of the fish when it may be too late to save their lives by treatment.
- Always quarantine tangs before putting them with other fishes.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004313540600683X
But it might also be worth reading more on....all I have is that abstract so we know "it's known". We're assuming Kordon has done their homework.
mcarroll
10K Club member
The way to know that is with a microscope. Not easy.
I'm not sure there's a reason this stuff wouldn't work against velvet...seems to be in the same grouping of target organisms.
As Kordon says on their site though, severity and progression of the disease at the time of treatment is everything.
Notice it says clearly that it is a therapy, not a cure. You might get relief, but no cure....just an FYINotable quotes from the Ich Attack website:
Ich Attack®
It's certainly a known treatment:
- 100% Organic Herbals based on Naphthoquinones
- The therapeutic action of Ich-Attack on protozoan and other infections is due to its binding with cytoplasmic structures within the cell of the infecting organisms.
- Kordon Ich-Attack as an organic herbal treatment is focused in its effectiveness in treating protozoan, fungal, and dinoflagellate infections. It may be an inhibitor, but is not an eliminator of infectious viruses, bacteria and multi-celled organisms.
- However, the success of this treatment (as with all effective treatments) is dependent upon starting treatment as soon as infections are anticipated or noted. It often can be late in the extent of infection when it is noted in fishes, which may be too late to save them. As an example, for some species of white spot disease (Ich), the infection usually starts unnoticed in the mouth, gills, and nostrils of the fish, only later appearing on the outside surface of the fish when it may be too late to save their lives by treatment.
- Always quarantine tangs before putting them with other fishes.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004313540600683X
But it might also be worth reading more on....all I have is that abstract so we know "it's known". We're assuming Kordon has done their homework.
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
It can be identified by other means. Fish behavior, how quickly it spreads (life cycle), and photographs.
You cannot prove intent or malice and suing any of these companies would not be fruitful . This is assuming you have copious capital to do so, which most of us do not or are not willing to devote to this purpose.
This is all just my two cents, the op can choose which route to go. Whatever happens, be sure you keep us posted please.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Nobody is suing any of these companies.
We're talking about one company making specific claims about the product in question here in this thread where the OP says (so far) that it's his only available course of action.
From their site:
"Dinoflagellate infections treated by Ich-Attack are photosynthetic single-celled organisms which include Oodinium (velvet disease), Amyloodinium (coral fish disease), Tetrahymena, as well as other infectious dinoflagellates. Ich-Attack works well against fungi which are very important pathogens of fishes and their eggs. These fungi include for fresh water the species of Saprolegnia, Achlya, Leptomitus, Pythium, and for marine Exophiala, Ichthyophonus, Ich-Attack is especially suitable for tropical marine aquariums containing aquatic invertebrates, because it also treats their fungal infections, while not adversely affecting coral reef animals, including corals, anemones, starfish, snails, crabs, and shrimp."
I dunno if you read the abstract I posted, but the stuff they're using in Ich Attach is apparently used as a biocide for ballast water in large ships, but one that has minimal impact on large organisms.
A picture would help as 4fordfamily suggested. But in the mean time... How would you describe the the spots? Tiny, like dusted in sugar?
Can count the spots or tooo many to count?
Any other behavioral signs?
Like
Swimming into powerheads?
Hiding?
Staying in Shady areas of tank?
Anything you can add to the description will help
@Humblefish @melypr1985 can help you and maybe a mod can move this to the fish disease subforum..
Can count the spots or tooo many to count?
Any other behavioral signs?
Like
Swimming into powerheads?
Hiding?
Staying in Shady areas of tank?
Anything you can add to the description will help
@Humblefish @melypr1985 can help you and maybe a mod can move this to the fish disease subforum..
It's simple no quarantine needed if he is still eating, my purple tang use to get ick alot when I first got him , buy 2 products by seachem called metroplex and focus ,soak his food in it and he should be good in 2 to 3 days
domination2580
Reef-a-nator
This is not a cure to ich or velvet. Qt is needed if you want to rid of ich or velvet...the metro and focus just kind of contains it's bounds. If you were to add a fish amd just do this, your other fish will get infected, unless you are going to keep buying all of this just to keep ur at bay...
There is no cure for ick, it is better to contain it that to try and "cure" it, even if you quarantine and introduce the fish back into the system it is still likley to get it again , even if you copper treated the aquarium all you are doing is nuking the tank and killing both good and bad bacteria which means he would have to cycle the tank over and even if he still went ahead and did this it is still possible to reintroduce ick into the aquarium weather it be from a clean up crew or even live rock. And if you have a mixed reef it's even worse your more likley to kill off your corals than to rid yourself of the ick
domination2580
Reef-a-nator
This is why we quarantine everything...coral, inverts, fish....you can keep ich out of a system if you do so..
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