Reef Aquarium Fact #2 Clownfish and Sea Anemones live in a partenership call symbios

revhtree

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We are going to begin discussing the reef aquarium facts submitted by our members in the My Miami chalice giveaway thread.

Fact #2

Clownfish and Sea Anemones live in a partenership call symbiosis.The pair works together to keep each other safe and protects the other from any type of danger if it may present its self.

Let's discuss this!

Truth or False? What else might we need to learn on this subject?

clown_fish_and_a_sea_anemone-2640.jpg
 

condor

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the clowns get protection from the anemone and the clowns feed it in return with extra food found in the water column...........so i say false......
 
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drainbamage

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I can't remember the source, but I remember reading a respected author discussing the means the clownfish employ to host in the anemone. They their mucus prevents the 'nem from sensing their presence. Because of that factor, the relationship isn't quite symbiotic (as both animals aren't engaging in the benefit of each other on purpose.) I don't remember the exacts of the arguments, and I know it was cutting hairs, but just figured I'd drop it in.
Since Rev ones true or false...I'll say false to "any danger that presents itself" as I'm pretty positive a hungry queen trigger is going to get itself some nem if it wants regardless of what mama clown may say.

And lastly (I feel the need to try and contribute as much as possible, i'll shut up soon, I promise) what about all the other species that clowns will host in? So far I know of Euphellias, Leathers, GSP (the polyp, not the canadian.) What other ones have people seen their clowns host in?
 

TheChef

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there are pleanty of species of anemone that dont naturally host a clown, so Its probably closer to commensalism, where one species benefits (the clown) and the other is unaffected (as the nem is perfectly capable of living without the added food the clown may or may not bring).
 

condor

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there are pleanty of species of anemone that dont naturally host a clown, so Its probably closer to commensalism, where one species benefits (the clown) and the other is unaffected (as the nem is perfectly capable of living without the added food the clown may or may not bring).
true that the nem would still survive but with the clown the extra food is an added bonus/benefit. soi do think it would still be considered a symbiotic relationship
 
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nayrgaijin

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Sorry if this kind of strays from the topic, but then again I feel it's ok to ask, but why are clowns not known to host condylactis anemones?
Is it because they are from the Atlantic?
 
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revhtree

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BUMP! Good info so far!
 

Azurel

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I can't think of the book or website at the moment but topic was on Clowns and anemones and in it, it said the behavior that we see and think is the clown feeding the anemone is not what we think it is. The Clown is actually taking food scraps and trying to "save" them for themselves. It just so happens that the anemone is living and eats what is brought back. But to us it looks as though the Clownfish is feeding the aneome....

It is true that anemones are found without host...But no hosting anemone is found without a Clownfish or hosting Damsel......To remove one or the other mean imminent death for the fish or the anemone......A host anemone is not the same as a Condylactis, phymanthis, flower anemone etc....
 

noobreef408

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I would say first whats the literal definition of "Symbiosis" so people can understand. or else "protection" and "help live" becomes subjective.
 

drainbamage

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Sorry if this kind of strays from the topic, but then again I feel it's ok to ask, but why are clowns not known to host condylactis anemones?
Is it because they are from the Atlantic?

Yea, basically Condy's are from the Atlantic and there aren't any native species that host to them. Add on that for whatever reason they have a much more powerful "grasp" than most of the hosting 'Nems do and you have a recipe for not really hosting. This brings up the question of how clowns are able to host and what the means are that provides for it (be it a skin coating that makes them immune to the sting, the nems somehow acknowledging the clowns as being good for it (which is why I think of as symbiosis for some reason), or the clowns having a slimecoat that "hides" them from the nems senses.) That said I've seen Clarkii's and Tomato's on occasion host into a Condy.
 

Speg

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It is true that anemones are found without host...But no hosting anemone is found without a Clownfish or hosting Damsel......To remove one or the other mean imminent death for the fish or the anemone......A host anemone is not the same as a Condylactis, phymanthis, flower anemone etc....

I don't personally believe this is factual. A hosting anemone or clown fish without a host doesn't mean that they'll soon die. It may mean that they're not as protected, but then again someone without a gun isn't as protected as someone with--doesn't mean that either will die soon. It's true that clowns have little for defense besides their ability to hide within certain anemones/coral for protection and their bright colors are certainly no help to deter preditors. They also don't school like some damsels--but they can be quite aggressive nonetheless.

To the original question... The pairing of a clown and anemone has benefits for both involved but I've also seen problems with the partnership.

Pros:
1. Benefit for clown is obviously the protection that the anemone offers from the stinging cells in the anemone's tentacles and a mildly safe place to call "home"
2. The benefit that the anemone/coral gets from the clown is questionable. Although, "food" would be the bigger benefit if there was one. As the clown seems to forage a small distance away from its host and will return to the host to eat. I don't believe the clown is intending to feed the host but sometimes food is dropped, caught, or even stolen as the clown is trying to eat near/in its host.
3. Damsels (anemonefish) are aggressive. Clowns are aggressive and curious too. On the reef, or in our tanks, there are many things that eat anemones and clowns could very well protect an anemone from some of them. Some small shrimps, nudibranches, fish, etc may pray on anemones/coral and a clown could help remove/guard against those pests.
Cons.
1. I don't know if you guys have witnessed it, but I've seen clowns become quite aggressive towards its host. I had a clown that would pull on a bubble tip anemone's tentacles and even managed to remove one once. If the anemone ever deflated, the clown would smash/pull the tentacles in an attempt to get something happening. Sometimes this could be very damaging for the anemone.

It's really hard to say and all depends on if you believe the anemone is really getting anything out of the pairing. I personally think that there is a benefit to both parties and the fact posted is indeed a fact....except that some dangers are not going to be prevented by either the clownfish or the anemone.
 

clowns101

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The pair lives in symbiosos.Why?Both the host and the hoster,recive somthing for the relationship.The clowns do get protection,while the fish ofer protection to the anemone by fighting off and other fish that may wounder onto their property.Now,I agree that a clownfish sure isnt going to fight off a big trigger,but think about it,do you think a trigger is going to be able to get to the fish if they live way down beep in the tentecals of the anmeone or live in a carpet anemone?All of us who have/or own a carpet,know that once that touch something,they very rarely go down with out a figh.As the fish moves around,its going to give the aneone more power after all because the fish is worming around most likly coming in contact with the anemone more and more every time it moves.So yes,its symbiosis,and yes both do offer protection.But just like levys are supposed to keep huricanes from hitting land.They may help some,and may stop some smaller ones,but they dont stop every thing,its the same concept with clownfish and anemones.The clownfish can fight off some fish,but they arent going to fight off a nice big parrot fish,but if a littel damsle comes along,the fish are going to fight it off.Just like a levy.The anemone work the same way,just opposie of clownfish,what the fish cant fight,the anemone naturly knows to sting anything it touches.

Hope it makes since to you guys,but yes they live in symbiosis,and do fight off alot more than we know off.
 

drainbamage

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The pair lives in symbiosos.Why?Both the host and the hoster,recive somthing for the relationship.The clowns do get protection,while the fish ofer protection to the anemone by fighting off and other fish that may wounder onto their property.Now,I agree that a clownfish sure isnt going to fight off a big trigger,but think about it,do you think a trigger is going to be able to get to the fish if they live way down beep in the tentecals of the anmeone or live in a carpet anemone?All of us who have/or own a carpet,know that once that touch something,they very rarely go down with out a figh.As the fish moves around,its going to give the aneone more power after all because the fish is worming around most likly coming in contact with the anemone more and more every time it moves.So yes,its symbiosis,and yes both do offer protection.But just like levys are supposed to keep huricanes from hitting land.They may help some,and may stop some smaller ones,but they dont stop every thing,its the same concept with clownfish and anemones.The clownfish can fight off some fish,but they arent going to fight off a nice big parrot fish,but if a littel damsle comes along,the fish are going to fight it off.Just like a levy.The anemone work the same way,just opposie of clownfish,what the fish cant fight,the anemone naturly knows to sting anything it touches.

Hope it makes since to you guys,but yes they live in symbiosis,and do fight off alot more than we know off.

I understand this perspective, and I truly don't intend to be arguing with you, rather just politely disagreeing. It seems contrary that the Nem needs the protection of the clownfish against the smaller predators that the Nem should be capable of using its stinging to defend against, yes/no? The argument for symbiosis I've never tried to counter is the food argument, whereby the clowns are bringing a source of food into direct contact with the Nem, giving the Nem an advantage in trade for the protection the clowns are given. I think whoever above said that the defintion of the varios terms would be ideal, but then we just become "rule lawyers" arguing about if it fits a description, and not about the actual role.
 

clowns101

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I understand this perspective, and I truly don't intend to be arguing with you, rather just politely disagreeing. It seems contrary that the Nem needs the protection of the clownfish against the smaller predators that the Nem should be capable of using its stinging to defend against, yes/no? The argument for symbiosis I've never tried to counter is the food argument, whereby the clowns are bringing a source of food into direct contact with the Nem, giving the Nem an advantage in trade for the protection the clowns are given. I think whoever above said that the defintion of the varios terms would be ideal, but then we just become "rule lawyers" arguing about if it fits a description, and not about the actual role.

I dont quite understand what you mean,but OK.One thing though,we dont know if the clownfish actully feed the anemone.Im not joking.There are tons of theroy about this topic,mine is along with what alot of others think,they are simply hiding food,not feeding the anemone.
 

drainbamage

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I dont quite understand what you mean,but OK.One thing though,we dont know if the clownfish actully feed the anemone.Im not joking.There are tons of theroy about this topic,mine is along with what alot of others think,they are simply hiding food,not feeding the anemone.

I'd agree with you on this one-that the clowns are not intentionally feeding the 'nem, that it's just happestance that the nem receives some crumbles of food and the excrement of the clowns. This is why based upon the limited knowledge I have of the whole relationship that I'd disagree on it being a symbiosis, at the very least a purposeful symbiosis, and at the other end of the spectrum a possible predatory relationship that is not detrimental to the host.
 

clowns101

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I'd agree with you on this one-that the clowns are not intentionally feeding the 'nem, that it's just happestance that the nem receives some crumbles of food and the excrement of the clowns. This is why based upon the limited knowledge I have of the whole relationship that I'd disagree on it being a symbiosis, at the very least a purposeful symbiosis, and at the other end of the spectrum a possible predatory relationship that is not detrimental to the host.

If you dont belive its symbiosis,then what is it?Im myslef would like to know,since I have kept anemones for quite a few years and have never had one porson tell me they dont live in symbiosis with clownfish.
 

drainbamage

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If you dont belive its symbiosis,then what is it?Im myslef would like to know,since I have kept anemones for quite a few years and have never had one porson tell me they dont live in symbiosis with clownfish.

Err, pretty much just what I said. If symbiotic it's purely happenstance, and it could very well be considered a predatory relationship that happens to cause little damage to the host (the clownfish being the psuedo-predator.) I can't cite the sources, but this is based on literature I've read in the past, but almost all sources I've read always point out that it's an inconclusive study one way or the other, and largely hinges upon which definitions one will seek to use.

One curiousity, how would one define a clownfish that kills a young nem by trying to host in it? I've seen a number of bubble tips battered to eventual death by a larger clown wanting to host in it and not accepting the Nems closing up refusal. Does this still fit a symbiotic relationship only hampered by the potential ignorance of the clown? I'd like to compare it to a coral expelling its zooanthalae (sp??) but that seems to be a subject with very little known "facts" as well.
 

TheChef

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true that the nem would still survive but with the clown the extra food is an added bonus/benefit. soi do think it would still be considered a symbiotic relationship


commensalism is a subset of symbiosis

"Symbiosis" is more of an umbrella term for various types of relationships involving interactions of different species. The clown-anemone relationship is not an obligate symbiosis, where one relies on the other and will die without it, but rather is a commensal symbiosis, where one stands to gain and the other is relatively unaffected. The anemone does get food, but its just by chance and the nem gets something like 98% of its energy from the photosynthetic algae in its tissue
 

condor

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commensalism is a subset of symbiosis

"Symbiosis" is more of an umbrella term for various types of relationships involving interactions of different species. The clown-anemone relationship is not an obligate symbiosis, where one relies on the other and will die without it, but rather is a commensal symbiosis, where one stands to gain and the other is relatively unaffected. The anemone does get food, but its just by chance and the nem gets something like 98% of its energy from the photosynthetic algae in its tissue
still a bonus\benefit
what about pistol shrimp and shrimp gobies, both benefit from each others roles and if on their own they still may do just fine. but when together life becomes that much easier. same with the clown and the nem
 

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