Tang Aggression - Understanding and Combating

[jabeuy]

No way to know for sure. Sometimes they get over it and sometimes it is a personal vendetta not to subside. I will say though the hippo tendency to hide well slightly tips the odds in his favor until it grows large enough to shut down the kole's reign.

Thanks. Guess theyre fine for now since everyone looks healthy.
The kole has no idea how big the hippo is gonna get haha.

 

[Minnow]

Do any of you have an idea of how long a fish needs to be removed from a tank before he is reintroduced. I have a powder blue that was chasing a wrasse I added. I trapped the PBT and moved him into a second tank. I was curious how long it would take to erase the "boss" mindset so I could put him back in the display. Keep in mind the display tank has a yellow tang and a Kole in it too. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Minnow]

Any ideas? I have done this before with success but I can't remember how long I waited to move him back.

 

[Minnow]

Do any of you have an idea of how long a fish needs to be removed from a tank before he is reintroduced. I have a powder blue that was chasing a wrasse I added. I trapped the PBT and moved him into a second tank. I was curious how long it would take to erase the "boss" mindset so I could put him back in the display. Keep in mind the display tank has a yellow tang and a Kole in it too. Thanks for your thoughts.

I wanted to update my progress with this issue. I waited a week before putting the Powder Blue Tang back in the tank. He wasted no time going after the Yellow Tang and the Wrasse. So I learned one week was not long enough. I was not able to rearrange the tank before I added him back because of the coral. Now back to trying to trap him again. What a pain.

 

[4FordFamily]

I wanted to update my progress with this issue. I waited a week before putting the Powder Blue Tang back in the tank. He wasted no time going after the Yellow Tang and the Wrasse. So I learned one week was not long enough. I was not able to rearrange the tank before I added him back because of the coral. Now back to trying to trap him again. What a pain.

Sorry it took me so long to respond. Honestly, PBT can hold permanent grudges - essentially no amount of time will work in some cases. I wish I had better news but if the PBT is attacking wrasse, you've got a very aggressive PBT.

You would need to add lots of fish simultaneously to have any chance but he would probably still target one or two and badger them to death.

You need to properly qt and treat new additions or your PBT will come down with ich and it will finish it off, they're very fragile despite being so nasty. It stresses them out even as the aggressors which further weakens them.

 

[sanchoy]

I have kept plenty of tangs in the past for over 6-9 years of in my 350 tank. And by far the notorious Sohal is the king of terror. When he was small 5-6 inches he was fine, but when he reached the lengths of 12+ he destroyed everything (ripping corals apart) in the tank to chase others, going after other tangs, tank mates. Below is my experience with tangs from worst to best behaved; this was in my 350 size tank.

1. Sohal (great at small size, until he reached 12+ then turned into monster); After 9 years with this beast I sold him to the local fish store. He was a beauty but the aggression was too much to handle.
2. Purple Tang (He is a bully for all new fish, I watched him shred a scorpion fish to death)
3. Powder Blue/ Achilles : Same aggression, sword play often until pecking order is established
4. Yellow/ bristle tooth/ Chevron (medium temperament)
5. Naso (docile big )
6. Fowleri (friendly)

 

[Paranoiattack91]

I was posting this in another thread and thought others may find this useful. It's a common discussion point. Some may dissent with what I have to share but I've never had less than three tanks running at a time, up to 7, and have been in the hobby 12 years with 2 of them spent working for an LFS running their saltwater fish dept largely

Root of Tang Aggression

Understand that from a tangs point of view, more herbivores means less algae. They've evolved to defend their patch of algae and territory very hard because they may starve if someone else comes in and takes it over. It's literally life or death for them. Angels and other herbivores are occasionally ousted but tangs in particular are often in direct competition for food and will be heckled heavily. The only herbivore that is tolerated (sometimes) is foxface. This is because they're venomous. Even still I've seen tangs stress them to death literally.

Tangs are often most aggressive to members of the same species in home aquaria and species in the same genus. When not schooling, they often protect a patch of rock from other fish, often other tangs, particularly tangs of the same species. (It is much more likely that they will compete for food since their diet is identical)

Tangs are also more likely to be aggressive in the home aquaria because they are stressed and in smaller quarters. Even the best hobbyists have questionable environments compared to their natural homes in the ocean. Fish that swim several miles each day such as many acanthurus tangs (particularly PBT, Achilles, etc) feel cramped and as with any organism that is stressed, they can respond to this by "acting out" (aggression).

With this in mind, your existing tangs are not going to be welcoming. The degree of aggression the new tangs receive can be curbed by a few things:

1) keeping them very very well fed. Keep enough nori in there that by the end of the day it is gone but they have access to it for most of the day. This will make them feel like they need to compete less, but it's no guarantee.

2) re arrange rockwork. This can be successful because the tang feels like they are no longer in their territory temporarily and may hesitate to be as aggressive as otherwise.

3) add multiple tangs at a time. Tangs can take some serious abuse, but 3 on 1 new addition is terrible odds. It may work but the new fish will be very stressed and possibly stabbed several times. Even if only one new tang heckled the new tang it would not be a fair fight - a fat established and possibly more aggressive species targeting a fish that has been through h$&@ getting to you and as such has a weak immune system, is thinner presumably because it hasn't eaten as it should, and is very stressed. More tangs will increase distraction and will break up aggression at least by 50%, providing you don't have a tang that singles one of the newcomers out. Powder blue are notorious for picking a grudge and taking it to their grave. Other aggressive species often simmer down in a weeks time. If the fish makes it that long things should get better, presuming they don't succumb to ich or other parasites.

4) use acclimation boxes. This shields the newcomer from attacks from other fish and gets them used to seeing the new fish. It also allows the new fish to adjust a bit so that it is better able to defend itself and know its surroundings better.

5) mirrors placed in the corner of the tank. For a very aggressive tang, sometimes a mirror placed in the corners will keep the fish flashing and attacking itself rather than harassing a new addition. I've personally never done this but have heard of some limited success.

6) removal of the problem fish and a re-introduction later. This can work because the tank pecking order is disrupted. The fish will be confused by the change and work out their own new pecking order and be less concerned with harassing the newcomers. Upon reintroduction some few days or months later, assumedly the new fish will not be the tank boss and will not be as territorial as a result (since it is not his territory now - yet)

7) combination of these ideas. To hedge your bets, mixing strategies may well be worth the effort.

8) if you are planning to add tangs of the same genus, definitely add more than one. I frequently break the rules with tangs. One tank has a PBT and Achilles tang together, another has a PBT, Achilles, and goldrim together. They get along great. This wasn't easy and some fish had to be moved around and they were added simultaneously most of the time. I've always kept purple, yellow, and sailfins as a trio. Again, adding at the same time. They've always gotten along well. I've done this for 12 years with more than three test groups in various tanks on various occasions.

Adding a yellow to an established purple for instance is likely to end in the death of the yellow. Adding an Achilles to a PBT is often murder.

9) adding tangs of larger OR smaller size. There is different logic to this theory, both is probably valid. Add larger less aggressive tangs than your most aggressive tang to intimidate it. Again some may not be intimidated... particularly PBT.

Adding smaller tangs may make sense because the existing tang may see them as LESS of a threat for dominance in the pecking order (but still a threat to its food sources...)

Many people have different opinions but the only steadfast rule I follow is not to add tangs of the same exact size unless I am adding them in groups.

Conclusion:

Understand that none of this is fool proof. Powder blue tangs in particular are notorious for holding a permanent grudge. Months of time apart will not work if they have a "personal vendetta" to destroy a fish-- not always a tang, either.

Sohal tangs IME are not nearly as aggressive as people make them out to be. I hypothesize that a few people had terror sohal tangs and their stories keep getting repeated by other members and shared with others. As such, they get a worse rep than they deserve because of the same stories being told by several reefers. Honestly I don't even rank sohal tangs in the top 5 or maybe even 10 most aggressive tangs, although it is on my list because I've not owned all tangs

My list is this: (I'm only ranking tangs I've actually had experience with). This is just an opinion after having several of each species over the years in multiple tanks. I will mark how many I have currently of each.

1) powder blue (2)
2) purple (1)
3) Sailfin
4) yellow (1)
5) desjarini sailfin (1)
6) Sohal (1)
7) Clown
8) powder brown
9) Achilles (2) - most are docile but the nasty are up there with PBT
10) Atlantic blue (1)
11) goldrim/white cheek (1)
12) Kole
13) Hippo
14) YB hippo (1)
15) Chevron (1)
16) blonde naso (1)
17) Naso

I've also had an orange shoulder and scopus for a short while when I started out. Although it's been awhile I would rank them towards the bottom with aggression. But one fish for a short time is not a great sample size.

At any point I've had at least 3 or more of the rear of these fish for some time, if anyone is curious.

Hope this is helpful.

So what do you think my odds are with this...

I've had had my yellow tang for 2 years now since it was really really small. It has gone through a tank transfer, a horrible ich or velvet outbreak, 72 days in a qt tank going through copper / prazi, and gets along with its current tank mates in a 120 gallon tank (powder brown tang, coral beauty and 2 clowns).

One of my favorite and most wanted fish since I got into the hobby was a purple tang, which was one of the fish I lost in my ich/velvet outbreaks.

Fast forward a few months-- the yellow tang, powder brown, coral beauty and 2 clowns are back in the display after going through 72 days in qt while the display went fishless. Now that I was ready to start restocking the tank I got a beautiful purple tang from a local reefer at a steal of a price that I couldn't pass up. The purple was just slightly larger than the yellow.

I put the purple through 5 weeks of qt, then put him in an Aclimation box in the main tank for a day, and released him the following day. As soon as I released him the yellow tang lost his mind!!!! The yellow chased him non stop and I was hoping he'd let up. I could not catch either one of them with a net or a trap because they would hide behind the rocks from the net and neither one would go after food in the trap because of the constant chasing. After 3 days of almost not stop chasing, the purple was so exhausted and beat up he almost begged me to net him. I put the purple in the sump while I tried to catch the yellow. Yesterday I caught the yellow, put him in the sump and moved the purple back to the display. The purple is getting along great with everyone and now I have to figure out what to do with the yellow.

I guess my question is - what are the chances of keeping the yellow in the sump for a week or two and then re introducing him hoping that breaks his territorial issues? I'd really rather not get rid of him since I've had him so long but I don't want to see the purple get beat to death again. Or am I better off just selling the yellow and getting a new larger yellow? I don't know what to do

 

[mtfish]

I have several tangs in a 420 gallon tank. In order added was a kole tang; purple tang; yellow tang and Achilles tang. I also have a copperband butterfly that was put in sometime around the same time as the purple tang. Butterfly can hold his own with any of these tangs and generally is not bothered by any of them. The purple and yellow would bicker a lot at first, and still do at times. The Achilles was bothered by all tangs at first, but is now showing his dominance. As of this writing all of these fish get along well. What I find interesting is that I have a striped parrotfish that got no attention from any fish before but is now being chased across the entire tank by the Achilles. No harm but just harassment a lot.

 

[Minnow]

Sorry it took me so long to respond. Honestly, PBT can hold permanent grudges - essentially no amount of time will work in some cases. I wish I had better news but if the PBT is attacking wrasse, you've got a very aggressive PBT.

You would need to add lots of fish simultaneously to have any chance but he would probably still target one or two and badger them to death.

You need to properly qt and treat new additions or your PBT will come down with ich and it will finish it off, they're very fragile despite being so nasty. It stresses them out even as the aggressors which further weakens them.

Thank you for getting back to me. I have decided to take the PBT back to the store. Very hard decision for me. I had him a while and was by far my favorite fish. I just felt it best to have a tank where everyone gets along over one with my favorite fish in it.
I always use QT with any new addition and another reason why it was so frustrating to watch the PBT go ballistic. You take all the time to make sure a wrasse is healthy and then the PBT goes nuts. I will add this to my list of lessons learned. Happy reefing!

 

[4FordFamily]

So what do you think my odds are with this...

I've had had my yellow tang for 2 years now since it was really really small. It has gone through a tank transfer, a horrible ich or velvet outbreak, 72 days in a qt tank going through copper / prazi, and gets along with its current tank mates in a 120 gallon tank (powder brown tang, coral beauty and 2 clowns).

One of my favorite and most wanted fish since I got into the hobby was a purple tang, which was one of the fish I lost in my ich/velvet outbreaks.

Fast forward a few months-- the yellow tang, powder brown, coral beauty and 2 clowns are back in the display after going through 72 days in qt while the display went fishless. Now that I was ready to start restocking the tank I got a beautiful purple tang from a local reefer at a steal of a price that I couldn't pass up. The purple was just slightly larger than the yellow.

I put the purple through 5 weeks of qt, then put him in an Aclimation box in the main tank for a day, and released him the following day. As soon as I released him the yellow tang lost his mind!!!! The yellow chased him non stop and I was hoping he'd let up. I could not catch either one of them with a net or a trap because they would hide behind the rocks from the net and neither one would go after food in the trap because of the constant chasing. After 3 days of almost not stop chasing, the purple was so exhausted and beat up he almost begged me to net him. I put the purple in the sump while I tried to catch the yellow. Yesterday I caught the yellow, put him in the sump and moved the purple back to the display. The purple is getting along great with everyone and now I have to figure out what to do with the yellow.

I guess my question is - what are the chances of keeping the yellow in the sump for a week or two and then re introducing him hoping that breaks his territorial issues? I'd really rather not get rid of him since I've had him so long but I don't want to see the purple get beat to death again. Or am I better off just selling the yellow and getting a new larger yellow? I don't know what to do

So IMO you have a 50/50 shot of him getting over himself later on. To help your odds you might move rocks around. However, if he is that aggressive you might be better off with a new yellow tang - but if you didn't plan to add more fish later, particularly tangs, you have a 50/50 shot of him getting over it. They usually don't hold grudges like powder blues and Achilles and the like IME. Nurse the purple back to health and get him established and make that decision.

 

[Paranoiattack91]

So IMO you have a 50/50 shot of him getting over himself later on. To help your odds you might move rocks around. However, if he is that aggressive you might be better off with a new yellow tang - but if you didn't plan to add more fish later, particularly tangs, you have a 50/50 shot of him getting over it. They usually don't hold grudges like powder blues and Achilles and the like IME. Nurse the purple back to health and get him established and make that decision.

I might just have to get a new yellow tang then I can't move the rocks, they are all drilled and stacked on acrylic rods. I don't know if I want to risk the purple getting beat to near death again. I really want a yellow tang in the tank but I'm not sure how to add one once the purple gets established since they are from the same family.

 

[4FordFamily]

I might just have to get a new yellow tang then I can't move the rocks, they are all drilled and stacked on acrylic rods. I don't know if I want to risk the purple getting beat to near death again. I really want a yellow tang in the tank but I'm not sure how to add one once the purple gets established since they are from the same family.

What size tank again? It often works better to add more than one tang at a time, even better more than one of same family if you must do this. I've long mixed zebrasoma tangs without much issue but I don't typically add one at a time. If the tank is large enough add a Desjardini Sailfin, I really love that trio of zebrasoma. If not, you still have a chance but adding multiple increases your chances

 

[Paranoiattack91]

What size tank again? It often works better to add more than one tang at a time, even better more than one of same family if you must do this. I've long mixed zebrasoma tangs without much issue but I don't typically add one at a time. If the tank is large enough add a Desjardini Sailfin, I really love that trio of zebrasoma. If not, you still have a chance but adding multiple increases your chances

It's 120 gallons. Not sure I want more than 3 tangs in the tank

 

[4FordFamily]

It's 120 gallons. Not sure I want more than 3 tangs in the tank

I wouldn't push it

 

[Paranoiattack91]

I wouldn't push it

Just re homed the yellow to a local reefer. He's going into his 180, hopefully he'll be happy

 

[4FordFamily]

So what do you think my odds are with this...

I've had had my yellow tang for 2 years now since it was really really small. It has gone through a tank transfer, a horrible ich or velvet outbreak, 72 days in a qt tank going through copper / prazi, and gets along with its current tank mates in a 120 gallon tank (powder brown tang, coral beauty and 2 clowns).

One of my favorite and most wanted fish since I got into the hobby was a purple tang, which was one of the fish I lost in my ich/velvet outbreaks.

Fast forward a few months-- the yellow tang, powder brown, coral beauty and 2 clowns are back in the display after going through 72 days in qt while the display went fishless. Now that I was ready to start restocking the tank I got a beautiful purple tang from a local reefer at a steal of a price that I couldn't pass up. The purple was just slightly larger than the yellow.

I put the purple through 5 weeks of qt, then put him in an Aclimation box in the main tank for a day, and released him the following day. As soon as I released him the yellow tang lost his mind!!!! The yellow chased him non stop and I was hoping he'd let up. I could not catch either one of them with a net or a trap because they would hide behind the rocks from the net and neither one would go after food in the trap because of the constant chasing. After 3 days of almost not stop chasing, the purple was so exhausted and beat up he almost begged me to net him. I put the purple in the sump while I tried to catch the yellow. Yesterday I caught the yellow, put him in the sump and moved the purple back to the display. The purple is getting along great with everyone and now I have to figure out what to do with the yellow.

I guess my question is - what are the chances of keeping the yellow in the sump for a week or two and then re introducing him hoping that breaks his territorial issues? I'd really rather not get rid of him since I've had him so long but I don't want to see the purple get beat to death again. Or am I better off just selling the yellow and getting a new larger yellow? I don't know what to do

Sorry for late response, how did it go?

 

[sdnd]

They can all play along as long as they are well fed and lots of room to roam. Have to agree that the PBT is probably the most aggressive of them all!

 

[4FordFamily]

They can all play along as long as they are well fed and lots of room to roam. Have to agree that the PBT is probably the most aggressive of them all!

Gorgeous!!! Thanks for sharing!

 

[915MANG]

Good information, I watched American Reef video, where he has a ton o yellow tangs. He mentioned the same info, thanks!

 

[4FordFamily]

I have kept plenty of tangs in the past for over 6-9 years of in my 350 tank. And by far the notorious Sohal is the king of terror. When he was small 5-6 inches he was fine, but when he reached the lengths of 12+ he destroyed everything (ripping corals apart) in the tank to chase others, going after other tangs, tank mates. Below is my experience with tangs from worst to best behaved; this was in my 350 size tank.

1. Sohal (great at small size, until he reached 12+ then turned into monster); After 9 years with this beast I sold him to the local fish store. He was a beauty but the aggression was too much to handle.
2. Purple Tang (He is a bully for all new fish, I watched him shred a scorpion fish to death)
3. Powder Blue/ Achilles : Same aggression, sword play often until pecking order is established
4. Yellow/ bristle tooth/ Chevron (medium temperament)
5. Naso (docile big )
6. Fowleri (friendly)

I hear frequently that they turn to Satan as they age, mine is probably 6" right now bought at 3.75 or so.

It's interesting to me to hear these accounts because a good friend of mine has a 300 with 5 tangs, one of them a 10" sohal. His yellow tang chases it around and although not a docile fish by any means it's not the tank boss, nor is it very aggressive. This also reminds me of a 12" sohal we got from a customer years ago that we put in our display tank until it sold, the resident 4" Sailfin tang badgered it almost to death before the Sailfin got slashed once. Honestly I couldn't believe how long it took the sohal to defend itself. It took probably 3 months to sell and any fish added to the display were largely ignored, even tangs.

I hypothesize that tanks with many tangs, that the aggression is spread enough that nothing too serious happens.

I am only going off of my experience, and that of my customers and peers that I know/knew personally. I do read that they're horrendous on forums off and on as you say, I don't think anyone makes those stories up.