Treating for ich but still spots, need help

[Jberge]

I'll start from the beginning. I have a 72g fowlr that I upgraded to 2-1/2 months ago. I've been in the hobby for 4 months now after being given an established 29g. 2 clowns, green chromis and a watchman goby came with the tank and were about 3 years old. I added a yellow chromis, coral beauty, fire shrimp, snails and hermits. In the beginning of February I thought my female clown was showing signs of ich. I didn't have a qt at the time and procrastinated on buying one. The symptoms would show then disappear. After 2 weeks of this she was finally completely covered, breathing fast, barely eating and coming to the surface for air. The male also had a few spots. I didn't think the female had much time left so I bought a qt and moved them immediately. Also in the mix at this point was a sailfin tang that my gf brought home for me 2 days before as a surprise. Right after I moved them all I gave the first dose of cupramine. The next morning the sailfin was covered in spots and died before I got home from work that day. The next day I gave the second dose bringing the copper to .5. Around day 4 or 5 the goby jumped out through the only area not covered by the lid and died. I haven't seen the coral beauty eat since day 4 but is still alive and active so I'm guessing he's picking food off the bottom. I lowered the copper to 0.4 6 days ago after reading that angels don't do well at 0.5. The clowns had looked all better within the first week and the female has been eating like a champ since. By week 2 she started having bumps/white spots again but nothing like before. They are still there now after almost 4 weeks of copper. The other fish look fine. I saw a post by humblefish where he said that copper can mask the symptoms of brooklynella so I'm wondering if that's what I'm dealing with. I have formalin-ms on its way just in case. I posted a pic similar to what the clown looked like before the qt along with a current pic but it's hard to see and the 2 real noticeable spots were on the glass. So if it is brook do I pull the copper and treat the whole qt or just do dips/baths on the clown? I was also planning on a 76 day fallow period so I have plenty of time to do this right. I've been doing tons of research but I need a little first hand advice..

 

[melypr1985]

It could certainly have been both ich and brook. Copper can indeed mask the symptoms some, so it looks like you cured the ick but now they are starting to show brook. You'll need to treat them all, but it's not going to be easy. What I would do is:

Perform formalin dip on all fish and transfer them to a sterile QT (not back into the one they have been in)
Treat in that QT with metroplex for 2 weeks.
If needed, do another formalin dip a couple days after the first then transfer again to a sterile QT. Continue treatment with metroplex.

Get an antibiotic like kanaplex just in case infection sets in. It's a common by-product of brook.

 

[melypr1985]

Oh! And WELCOME to R2R! I'm sorry your first post was about a sick fish. I hope it gets better quick.

 

[ebushrow]

never mind....she beat me to it...

 

[Jberge]

It looks a little worse tonight

 

[melypr1985]

Yeah. I'm comfortable with a brook diagnosis. You can do a freshwater dip while you wait for the formalin to show up. It may buy you some time.
Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes & "Black Ich", Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.

 

[Jberge]

I appreciate that advice and thanks for the welcoming. The formalin should be here fri. Once I have it should I only treat the clown or the whole qt. I read that brook is like ich or velvet where as the whole tank is infected.

 

[Jberge]

Sorry I didn't see your first post...reading it now

 

[Jberge]

I don't think I'll be able to set up another qt. Are there any other options?

 

[melypr1985]

I don't think I'll be able to set up another qt. Are there any other options?

Well, you could clean and sterilize the QT they are in now while they are in the formalin bath.

 

[Humblefish]

Well, you could clean and sterilize the QT they are in now while they are in the formalin bath.

+1 A 5 gallon bucket could improvise as a temporary QT for a day or two, if needed.

 

[Jberge]

Ok now I have a bunch of questions.
1. Should I use water they are in now for the formalin bath or do I just have to match sg and temp?
2. How long should it last?
3. Is it better to do one fish at a time or does that not matter?
4. I read that at least 3 baths are necessary is that true?
5. What is the purpose of the metroplex?
6. Do I sterilize the qt with a 1/10 beach to water mixture?

 

[Jberge]

Also are angels sensitive to formalin like they are to copper? I'm worried about going straight from the cupramine to another treatment

 

[melypr1985]

1. Should I use water they are in now for the formalin bath or do I just have to match sg and temp?

Either is fine. I like to use all new water though.

2. How long should it last?

45 minutes to an hour

3. Is it better to do one fish at a time or does that not matter?

You can do them at the same time.

4. I read that at least 3 baths are necessary is that true?

It may be needed.... but you should wait a couple days in between them to let the fish recover some.

5. What is the purpose of the metroplex?

it is another treatment for brook and also has some antibiotic properties which help with infections.

6. Do I sterilize the qt with a 1/10 beach to water mixture?

You can yes. Vinegar works as well.

 

[melypr1985]

Also are angels sensitive to formalin like they are to copper? I'm worried about going straight from the cupramine to another treatment

Not in that sense no.

 

[Jberge]

Thank you very much for the answers! I feel much better about this now. I think I just have one last question for now. I've never matched water and skipped acclaimating. How close does the SG have to be and do I need a refractor?

 

[melypr1985]

How close does the SG have to be and do I need a refractor?

+/- .001 but matching exactly is ideal of course. And yes, you will need a refractometer for sure

 

[Jberge]

Ok. Sorry I just thought of 2 more things...lol. Do I need an aerator in the water during the bath? And when I sterilize the qt can I save the sponge I have in the hob or does that have to be clean too?

 

[melypr1985]

Ok. Sorry I just thought of 2 more things...lol. Do I need an aerator in the water during the bath? And when I sterilize the qt can I save the sponge I have in the hob or does that have to be clean too?

Yes. Lots of aeration in the bath for sure. You'll want to toss the sponge completely and use a new one.

 

[Jberge]

Thank you! I was just reading about metroplex and do you use the other products that it suggests like focus or garlic guard? I'm sorry for all the questions. I'm really not used to getting such prompt answers from someone so informative