The DSR Method (Dutch Synthetic Reefing)

reefnz said:

What did this show? was there any major concerns.

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I did not see any mayor deviations that raised my concern, but even than i would not have change a thing about what i was doing. As long as my tank looks like it does, it tells me more than just to rely on measurement compared to NSW.

As i stated before and still do, i do NOT chase NSW values.

I rather find the tressholds where corals can live in or even thrive.


I will post my test later on. Now i am in the gym in between exercises.

glennf said:

I did not see any mayor deviations that raised my concern, but even than i would not have change a thing about what i was doing. As long as my tank looks like it does, it tells me more than just to rely on measurement compared to NSW.

As i stated before and still do, i do NOT chase NSW values.

I rather find the tressholds where corals can live in or even thrive

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That's a worthy goal, but with 20 or more things that can move independently, that's a big chore.

UK_Pete said:

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the info regarding you use of iron. I guess I might be one of those who would start with using iron and gravitate towards your whole method, as the idea of not doing water changes appeales to me too (obviously). I already have quite a few of the lab grade trace chemicals required for fertigation nutrient mixes for my fruit garden.

Going back to iron, my impression is that if you overdose iron relative to the amount of phosphate, the iron levels will still drop to low levels within hours, but could you confirm this? IE if you have say <0.01 ppm PO4, and you dose 0.15 ppm iron, the iron will still precipitate in one form or another despite the lack or phosphate, because it will precipitate in another form - hydroxide I think you are suggesting. Can I just confirm this is your opinion? Its quite important to me because if I add iron to my dosing pump, but am away for a few days (or couple of weeks) and feeding is much less, then less PO4 will be produced. So phosphate might become too little for the amount of iron being dosed. If this is still safe, thats good news (I appreciate that you feel that phosphate which is too low is harmful, but I am just wondering if its possible for iron levels to build up to >0.25 ppm if you are dosing 0.15 ppm per day).

Lastly if you have ever tried overdosing iron consistently for several days, what kind of level did the phosphate settle at? Did the iron completely strip phosphate from the water to unmeasurable levels?

Thanks, Pete

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The iron you dose will bind with PO4 and precipitate one way or the other.
After a dosing of iron you can measure a PO4 dip, but PO4 wil leak back from you LR and substrate to create a equilibrium.
That's why removing PO4 is so difficult and has an annoying delay.
I seem so work like a buffer...
You remove PO4 from the water , it leak back and it creep up again in a few hours. Everytime you do a Fe dosing this process repeat. Till the PO4 in the LR and your water reach level you desire.

The other way around is the same... some people who measure 0,0ppm PO4 spend weeks leveling up. Bij daily dosing up to 0,08ppm PO4 per day.

So if you have a high PO4 for a long time it won't go away permanently in a few days Fe Dosing.

Even than corals will not die because you PO4 is to high or to low for 1 week.

Randy Holmes-Farley said:

That's a worthy goal, but with 20 or more things that can move independently, that's a big chore.

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Randy i am aware of you reputation and i think you can teach me a few things.
So i am all ear if it concerns chemical processes.

I do believe it if you say many processes can move independant or even affect each other, but my way of thinking is, you need to (or attemp to) start somewhere.
So why not start with what we know and attemp to reach some way of controlling with the known usefull parameters.

I am a reef enthousiast who figure out a few things by putting together the puzzle with some common sense, common knowledge and a lot of real life experimenting.
This seem to be working just fine and i think i found a way to make reefkeeping for myself much more enjoyable. For a few years now i am getting results i could never dreamed of before this approach.

Now i think it's time to share my gathered experience and i hope to help reefers to be succesfull where they failed before.

My tools (calculator) and insight are helpfull in getting them to reach their goals. But these are only for people who are realy interested in my way of reef keeping. People who don't please do your own way and just disregard my opinions and all i share.

Interesting approach, in some ways it has much in common with Triton method except you can test the dosed elements yourself instead of sending off for testing. I am certainly intrigued.

Most of all, I am please that Glenn can share his method. Too often people are trying experiments and get completely trashed in forums because it is not the current, popular method.

Calling what Glenn did here is not your average experiment, especially after so many years of proven success.

I often wonder why people do not share their 'secrets' if the goal is to grow healthy coral and reduce our dependencies on wild stock.

Seems like we all win when people share, perhaps we lose only bragging rights (my coral is nicer than your coral :tongue:

Share on, share on!

What's the ratio (vinegar/sugar) you use for carbon dosing?

What form of iron, exactly, do you use? I'd like to try this but don't want to accidentally get one that's going to kill something or be ineffective.

Eienna, to save Glenn from repeating himself, I asked him that on the last page of this thread, and he said its iron citrate hes using. Randy has explained how to make this elsewhere, although he currently recommends a different iron supplement himself (iron gluconate), and in case you can't find it online as I could not, hes just helped me understand how he made it in the past in this thread https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/re...-mono-sodium-citrate-making-iron-citrate.html

In a nutshell, he adds 25g of ferrous sulfate heptahydrate to 50g of trisodium citrate dihydrate, both easily available on ebay, to 250ml of water, and doses that, at a rate of about 0.1 to 0.3 ml / liter tank volume, 2 to 3 times a week (thats Randy's use for algae nutrients). Glenn's dosage is about 0.15 ppm (once weekly IIRC), although I am not sure if thats 0.15 ppm iron, or 0.15 ppm iron citrate - maybe Glenn can clarify? My chemistry is not quite good enough to be able to convert that dosage in ppm to ml of the above solution, maybe someone else can calculate it?

To have a bit of a guess, to dose this mix at 0.15 ppm I *THINK* (and stand to be corrected) you would need roughly 7.5 microliters per liter tank volume, or 0.75ml per 100 liter tank volume, if the final volume of Randys iron citrate was 250ml (which it would not be, it would be more, but this is probably good enough and would result in under dosing rather than over dosing). To be more accurate you would need to multiply this (7.5 microliter / liter tank volume) by (final volume of citrate mix / 250).

Sorry I am using metric but its too hard for me to use gallons and ounces etc.

Be aware that this will contain a carbon source in the form of the citrate.

Eienna said:

What form of iron, exactly, do you use? I'd like to try this but don't want to accidentally get one that's going to kill something or be ineffective.

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It's a Iron Chelate made of FeSO4 and a citrate . It's something similar to randy's formula but with a little twist, as i stated before, i will not reveal the solutions formula's and mixing ratio. I just explain how i use it to archieve results.

UK_Pete said:

Eienna, to save Glenn from repeating himself, I asked him that on the last page of this thread, and he said its iron citrate hes using. Randy has explained how to make this elsewhere, although he currently recommends a different iron supplement himself (iron gluconate), and in case you can't find it online as I could not, hes just helped me understand how he made it in the past in this thread https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/re...-mono-sodium-citrate-making-iron-citrate.html

In a nutshell, he adds 25g of ferrous sulfate heptahydrate to 50g of trisodium citrate dihydrate, both easily available on ebay, to 250ml of water, and doses that, at a rate of about 0.1 to 0.3 ml / liter tank volume, 2 to 3 times a week (thats Randy's use for algae nutrients). Glenn's dosage is about 0.15 ppm (once weekly IIRC), although I am not sure if thats 0.15 ppm iron, or 0.15 ppm iron citrate - maybe Glenn can clarify? My chemistry is not quite good enough to be able to convert that dosage in ppm to ml of the above solution, maybe someone else can calculate it?

To have a bit of a guess, to dose this mix at 0.15 ppm I *THINK* (and stand to be corrected) you would need roughly 7.5 microliters per liter tank volume, or 0.75ml per 100 liter tank volume, if the final volume of Randys iron citrate was 250ml (which it would not be, it would be more, but this is probably good enough and would result in under dosing rather than over dosing). To be more accurate you would need to multiply this (7.5 microliter / liter tank volume) by (final volume of citrate mix / 250).

Sorry I am using metric but its too hard for me to use gallons and ounces etc.

Be aware that this will contain a carbon source in the form of the citrate.

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glennf said:

It's a Iron Chelate made of FeSO4 and a citrate . It's something similar to randy's formula but with a little twist, as i stated before, i will not reveal the solutions formula's and mixing ratio. I just explain how i use it to archieve results.

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Thank you very much, guys!

glennf said:

It's a Iron Chelate made of FeSO4 and a citrate . It's something similar to randy's formula but with a little twist, as i stated before, i will not reveal the solutions formula's and mixing ratio. I just explain how i use it to archieve results.

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Will not share the formula? Ah bummer, I thought this was a way to share information for healthier corals. I understand a person has to make $$ but was hoping this was a hobbiest method rather than commercial. I still like the approach but have no access to the chemicals here in the states or any way to evaluate or compare them to other off the shelf options.

The problem I always see is that people may not mix the chemicals properly. An disasters happen then they blame the person sharing the formula. I have seen this happen many times over the years on forums.

I already mentioned before, I share the methode, but not the formulas.

There are several reasons for that.

Some stuff are common available. products Like NaHCO3, CaCl2, MgCl2 and MgSO4.
Others are not so common available or are only sold in bulk, or extremely expensive in small quantities.

Those who have the knowledge, acces and availability, know how to get and mix them. They need no furher explaining and can implement my method themselves.
Those why don't have above mentioned capabilities better avoid mixing stuff themselves, because it's a accident waiting to happen.

I want to protect my method from being abused and blamed for problems which are not originated from the method itself. So naturaly i needed to take control over the implementation.

I already had a few hijack attemps on the method from people who saw $$$.
The most logical domain name has been hijacked already for 2 years. But released because i did not give them the means to take over. If they would have they would have killed the method for sure.
So you see my concerns and what i have to deal with, just to share something and reach the people who cares.
Releasing formulas would have only benefited people who have acces and means to setup a business. So if they intend to, they should at least do some homework and have some knowledge.

I think i do something different than most reefers in the world. Some believe what i do is impossible and a accident waiting to happen. After 10 years i think some things may be concluded and i don't think it's all luck.
So now i want to show how it's being done.

TheClark said:

Will not share the formula? Ah bummer, I thought this was a way to share information for healthier corals. I understand a person has to make $$ but was hoping this was a hobbiest method rather than commercial. I still like the approach but have no access to the chemicals here in the states or any way to evaluate or compare them to other off the shelf options.

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reefwiser said:

The problem I always see is that people may not mix the chemicals properly. An disasters happen then they blame the person sharing the formula. I have seen this happen many times over the years on forums.

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Reefwiser, I think that's a load. If there were truth to it, Randy would by-now be a black sheep and we'd all still be using ESV or Kent chemicals (or be using none at all and bound by water changes) and we'd have no DIY chemistry wing of the hobby. I wouldn't even be here. (In reality, this is the first- or second-hottest topic in the hobby.)

So while this is a Free (as in speech) board and GlennF is welcome to do and say as he pleases within the confines of good taste (like anyone else), I'm with TheClark. In a Free community, sharing is better - proprietary is worse. But if GlennF wants to be proprietary like ESV or Kent - that's OK for him. It implies that not many people will try his method by comparison with being more open, but that's his choice to make since it's his research. Right? :thumb:

If this bothers you, and water changes+kalk or +two-part won't cut the mustard, I'd suggest looking into the slightly-better-documented Balling Method. If you want a super-quick intro, watch this video. You will still have some homework to do, but there are a c**pload of hobbyists outside the USA using it, so there is lots of info out there. In a nutshell, if you're familiar with the weakness of our traditional "two-part", which is sodium and chloride (aka table salt) buildup - Balling method addresses that with a salt mix lacking table salt instead of only a magnesium supplement. There are DIY approaches and "lite" approaches which are little more than "two-part"....and I believe Brightwell makes a salt like this (lacking table salt), but makes no hint at this usage. FYI.

Good luck to all!

-Matt

P.S. Don't forget it's not all about chemistry - you're getting some great photography from GlennF's reef too!

mcarroll said:

Reefwiser, I think that's a load. If there were truth to it, Randy would by-now be a black sheep and we'd all still be using ESV or Kent chemicals (or be using none at all and bound by water changes) and we'd have no DIY chemistry wing of the hobby. I wouldn't even be here. (In reality, this is the first- or second-hottest topic in the hobby.)

So while this is a Free (as in speech) board and GlennF is welcome to do and say as he pleases within the confines of good taste (like anyone else), I'm with TheClark. In a Free community, sharing is better - proprietary is worse. But if GlennF wants to be proprietary like ESV or Kent - that's OK for him. It implies that not many people will try his method by comparison with being more open, but that's his choice to make since it's his research. Right? :thumb:

If this bothers you, and water changes+kalk or +two-part won't cut the mustard, I'd suggest looking into the slightly-better-documented Balling Method. If you want a super-quick intro, watch this video. You will still have some homework to do, but there are a c**pload of hobbyists outside the USA using it, so there is lots of info out there. In a nutshell, if you're familiar with the weakness of our traditional "two-part", which is sodium and chloride (aka table salt) buildup - Balling method addresses that with a salt mix lacking table salt instead of only a magnesium supplement. There are DIY approaches and "lite" approaches which are little more than "two-part"....and I believe Brightwell makes a salt like this (lacking table salt), but makes no hint at this usage. FYI.

Good luck to all!

-Matt

P.S. Don't forget it's not all about chemistry - you're getting some great photography from GlennF's reef too!

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+1000%

Randy Holmes Farley, cannot thank him enough for his contributions, research, methods and free sharing with the reef hobby.

Matt, thanks for the tip on the balling method, it is intriguing. One of our LFS switched over to the Tropic Marin Balling method and the tank went from mediocre to jaw dropping healthy mixed reef tank. It definitely has my interest.

Its up to Glenn what he wants to share without profit I guess, and I don't know if we can complain if he wants to keep part of his experience to himself.

Glenn, perhaps you will just tell us if without your 'twist', its safe for those of us who do not know the twist to use iron citrate as you do to control phosphates? Or do we need to buy your specific iron citrate product to safely try this technique? IE is the twist part of the whole DSR method rather than specifically for removal of phosphate?

Thanks, Pete

Thankfully there are several paths to a beautiful reef

Good also to remember that we have the coral to thank for that more than any contribution from you, me or anyone else.

-Matt

UK_Pete said:

Its up to Glenn what he wants to share without profit I guess, and I don't know if we can complain if he wants to keep part of his experience to himself.

Glenn, perhaps you will just tell us if without your 'twist', its safe for those of us who do not know the twist to use iron citrate as you do to control phosphates? Or do we need to buy your specific iron citrate product to safely try this technique? IE is the twist part of the whole DSR method rather than specifically for removal of phosphate?

Thanks, Pete

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I mentioned my reasons before why i do it this way.

The twist of the iron chelate is a fine tuning to archieve the desired results.
I don't think it will harm as long as you know what your doing.
In general you might say it will work, but the result can be a little different and you might need to finetune the dosing a bit for yourself.

mcarroll, to be fair RHF is not advocating a new "method" in his name, but rather straight forward recipes for things which can be made from easily accessible ingredients in relatively large mixing quantities. Accuracy is not paramount and over/underdosing leaves much more room before disaster.

Randy also does a fantastic job of explaining every detail and it would be hard to blame him for something when he spells out all possible mis-steps. This explaining takes a great deal of time and effort, even more so for a non-native English speaker.

I would love for Glenn to share everything also but I can understand his hesitance given how he feels his "method" has been attacked in the past. I recently decided to stop doing water changes (and all the planning/dosing that goes along with that) and had some very annoying arguments with friends because of it. People can be very stuck in their ways.

Glenn, Keep sharing and ignore the haters :smile: