Discussion in 'General SPS Discussion' started by chopsie, Jan 25, 2018.
hmm your logic seems sound, however.... If you have a wild piece in your tank for more than a year or 2 how is that piece then any different to a aquacultured piece Once a wild piece settles in your tank it then also becomes tank hardy just like any other cultured piece
Was shortcake not the must have not so long ago?
I agree solely with buy what makes you happy, I started the thread wanting to learn more about high end and why they are considered high end. I didn’t start it to take away any enjoyment from anyone
The latistella below took over a year to reach this stage and showing the yellow tips so I appreciate all views and opinions
A piece of truly aquacultured IMO (and I think which should be the standard for aquaculture) is bringing into a system as a frag (even if a frag from wild) and then grown into a colony within captivity. This is true aquaculture and any frag cut from a colony grown within these means is aquacultured. A coral of this upbringing is generally of higher value than wild or mari and for good reason.
Bottom line is Buyers set the price. Sellers can't force anyone to buy anything (Outside of the Government). And arguing VALUE is a little odd, since value is unique to the individual. I don't understand arguing about this. If it isn't worth it to you don't buy it. You don't have to justify that decision to anyone. It is your tank, your money etc. If it is worth it to you, buy it, you don't have to justify that either. There will always be nice things that you can't afford, no matter how much money you have. They are nice, and you may want them really badly, but they don't fall into the overlapping range of your budget and value set. But stating that something is or isn't worth it, as if there is some universal Value Scale is highly unproductive. The more productive discussion is, "What makes it worth it/not worth it to you?" Unless of course you want to complain about some things being too expensive, which in a weird way, shows that there is, in fact, some value to you, since it shows desire/demand.
I buy pieces I like, cultured hopefully, the cost is important, I paid £65 for this, very well based out and healthy, the front lower left branch (S) are available for 60 quid!
DSC_0005 by sshipuk, on Flickr
None of us ... hobbyists or everyday reefers can control nor regulate the steep prices of "high end" sps BUT the originator Seller him/herself. We're basically at the mercy of the original Seller/lfs (of high end sps) as they're well aware that there's a handful of folks who has deep, deep pockets who wouldn't have second thoughts about acquiring exquisite high end corals and not bothered by the steep asking price!
I do realize (Indo, Caribbean, Australia etc.) coral collectors/suppliers are as much guilty in inflating coral prices because ... it's "Rainbow" color or One of A Kind. Can't blame anyone but ourselves really. If we "restrain" ourselves & don't buy, the "high end" sps prices will eventually come down ... regardless. Unfortunately this will not ever happen 'cause there's the limited few who wants to own it "right away" for either personal collection or frag 'em, sell 'em mentality. As long as there's a market & niche for the so called "rare, multi rainbow, Bounce, hard to find, exotic" corals, we're at the mercy of these Sellers. I'm well aware that by adding custom names to any corals, the price will "automatically" inflate big time!
Minimal profit margin mark up isn't going to happen as far as we all know ... this reef hobby is getting expensive to very expensive.
Interesting topic and just got thru most of the post. I still don’t understand what the problem is. Too expensive. ?? Don’t buy it. No one is putting gun to your head.
In my view (like many others before in this post ) buyers and demand control the price.
Right. There are two types of folks who think it is absurd:
those who smirk at the price with no interest at all, knowing there is a whole world of beautiful corals they can own
those who are filled with envy at what they cannot have
You need to ask yourself which are you? Why?
Reefkeeping should not be a competition. If you feel competitive with your pets go watch “Best in Show” for some perspective. There are lives (animals) at stake. For most of us it is primarily the challenge to have a piece of the wondrous, mystical ocean in our homes. We know it costs a lot to get there, but it can be done reasonably with great success and satisfaction.
He is getting club prices that's for sure. Small colonies like that go for 200 in the local fish stores around here, fresh off the plane from transhipping too. The high end maricultured stuff, which is not large by any means whatsoever, sells for 300+! And guess where a good amount of these high end frags came from?
There is a big difference between wild and maricultured pieces though, besides the fact that they are obviously both grown in the ocean. Also I have seen more corals come from hobbiests, well known vendors and club members that had coral pests than any wild or maricultured stuff. That's all I buy now basically, and for that one reason. Also the survivability of acropora that's wild or maricultured plus shipped and housed correctly is very good. Whole countries buy these corals to fill their tanks and you never hear them complain about stuff like pests and random coral deaths.
One other thing that's always pushed is that wild and maricultured stuff always browns out. Definitely not true, although a very stable tank, high light and a few other things will determine if this happens or not.
And for what it's worth, I have been getting some very crazy maricultured stuff that's really got some great colors that I am not used to seeing often. It takes some learning to pick good corals from the local store or online where colors are under all blues but very nice corals are out there.
Just my experience here though
Maybe slim was a bad choice. But wild and mari pieces absolutely have a significantly lower chance of surviving long and short term when compared to aquaculture. (At least here in the US) I buy wild and mari pieces often to find gems I can nurse and aquaculture long term. (I’m not a chop shop vendor) I’d wager that out of every 10 mariculture pieces I buy, 1 might be a long term winner. Half will die within 3 months. The rest will turn brown or green or something else uninteresting and I’ll sell them as cheap mariculture brownie colonies later once they make it for several months in my tanks. Someone else might get them to color up so I won’t just toss them.
The winner piece will get fragged, and then I’ll see if the frags grow. If they do and mother heals up, then I’ll name the piece and offer frags for sale. (This can take as long as 6 months)
I have such terrible luck with anything mariculture. For me it's 50/50 whether they make it or not and getting good color is usually asking my skills for to much.
I try and buy aquaculture exclusively now.
In the uk we buy corals from mariculture or wild, good friends will give frags and then there’s those that sell from there aquarium
I have a few from friends and lots of wild and mariculture all frags doing great, I do regular icp and I don’t foresee these animals dying for any other reason then me and my mistake/s
There’s a huge amount of difference between a aquarium at home and one in a shop in my opinion
There would be far less fluctuations at home and greater stability
Trying to work out a daily bases for Kh in a shop where some days you’re taking lots of stock and water out compared to other days.
We don’t get signature pieces in the UK
If in fact these prices are ridiculous (that's an individual choice...welcome to a free market instead of a command economy) the only thing more ridiculous are these threads.
It's a (mostly) free country and you have no right to somebody else's property. Do these corals just spontaneously generate, or does someone have to work to find and produce them?
If you think you can provide a product or service cheaper than someone else at a reasonable return to yourself, then start a business.
There are literally hundreds of corals and color morphs to choose from that are quite inexpensive, and all hobbies cost money. If you don't like somebody's price - don't buy the coral. Either wait for the price to drop after the frag becomes ubiquitous in a few years, or just don't buy it.
I've had a couple LFS ask me to buy into their businesses personally (I'm an investor for one of the largest fund companies in the world). When I looked at their books, I felt terrible for these people. The owners work 80-100 hours a week and make less than the nearly minimum wage employees do (on an hourly equivalent basis), while taking all of the risk. All of these eventually failed, by the way.
I would say that in most markets, an LFS is probably one of the worst businesses I have ever seen. They have relatively large start-up costs, razor-thin margins, a lot of overhead, and enormous risk - particularly on live inventory. Quite honestly they probably only survive (for the ones that do) because of the inept people in the hobby. I've had the fish in my current take for several years - I don't kill fish. Same for corals. In the last two years I have purchased salt, two-part, carbon, gfo, and replacement T5 bulbs - that's it. Stores don't survive on people like me, they survive on the person that can't keep a fish more than two months, and the person constantly upgrading/changing equipment because they are convinced their equipment is the problem rather than poor husbandry. And this isn't a knock on newbies...we've all been there. But if you've been in the hobby more than a year, you should not be having major issues. Grocery stores can survive on razor-thin margins because the inventory has velocity, i.e. the inventory constantly turns because you eat everyday. Most competent hobbyists don't buy much product.
Now you might argue you aren't talking about an LFS...ok. Well the coral farmers aren't exactly raking it in either. A guy like Jason Fox flies to Indonesia to pick these frags for God's sake. He is flying, diving, paying all these expenses before he sees a dime. Watch the youtube video of his business...it's in his basement. He looks to be living in a very modest house...and he has a second job!
If every frag was $50 and you had zero expenses, you'd need to sell 1000 a year - 20 a week to make $50k a year. Doable? Sure. Easy? No. And the hypothetical zero expense is obviously absurd.
But if you actually understood just 1% of the supply chain for this hobby, you would be amazed that anyone can keep coral and fish at all at a reasonable price.
You want to know what I think is greedy? The entitlement attitude that pervades society.
Much of the world's population has to spend hours a day getting potable drinking water, while we just let automatic switches flip on our RO/DI systems (draining away most of the water in the process) to get clean water. We pay the utility under a penny per gallon and don't have to do any work. All while we gorge ourselves on food in our energy guzzling houses that are climate controlled. And by the way, I think all that stuff is great - I'm just thankful for it and don't think I am entitled to any of it. We live better than Kings from 100 years ago. And yet we complain that certain corals aren't cheap.
Have some gratitude for the charmed life you lead. There's a lot of poor people that would love to simply have food.
I don’t doubt your words for a minute nor do I take anything for granted life is a gift in itself
I have respect for everything and everyone
Now I understand you may not of been directly speaking to me but I thought I’d reply to you
All the best buddy
It is a discussion amongst friends and no I’ll feeling was meant and no matter the opinions I respect them,
I love the hobby and as far as my wife and certain friends are concerned “I spent how much on that little thing” lol
Disposable income is subjective to the earnings and lifestyle we have
We all have different amounts we limit ourselves to..or not
So as high as some of these prices are that doesn’t mean high end to me, it means expensive, high priced as we all find different things beautiful
Is rare the same thing as high end?
Or is high end high priced because of how it’s sourced ?
Or both?? Seems to be both from this discussion
I don’t know but that’s what I was originally asking lol
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