10 year old clown fish is very ill. Please help ASAP. May die...

Bleigh

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Don’t scrape it hard. You just need to run the side of the fish. Shouldn’t cause it any discomfort. If it does, you’re doing it wrong. ;)
To expand, if you were to put gloves on, catch the fish in your hand, and rub a finger on the area that’s infected, then wipe this on a slide, I’d imagine this would give you a good idea of what may be going on, microscopically. If you wanted to make more certain you got something, use the flat side of a toothpick to gently, yet firmly (oxymoron I know) scrape the side that’s infected and place this on your microscope slide.

One project I worked on involved analysis of devil ray mucous. Initially the collections weren’t invasive at all. Unfortunately we realized the enzyme we were looking for was only produced when the ray was injured. We had to puncture (small puncture and it was healed in less than 2 days) the fins to start the production in order to study it in the mucous.

The collection should be more non-invasive for your clownfish, but obviously you don’t need to puncture your fish to look for microorganisms around the infected area.

I do agree that it probably doesn’t matter what it is, she needs to be treated. My only concern is whether it will be a recurring issue due to an underlying issue and how to best avoid future infections.
 
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"With respect to anyone who would like to be certain, almost all “proper” fish diagnostic procedures are done post mortem so unless you want to wait to be sure I would start treating. "

This hits the nail on the head. Unless you have fish anesthetic laying around(Tricane) you will have trouble getting a skin scrape biopsy without injuring your buddy.

Treat this fish for brook! Your are already employing an empirical shotgun therapy approach(multiple antibiotics with no idea which one will work based only on the macroscopic appearance of the fish's skin). If you really want to do everything you can to save this fish, why would you not do a quick rally bath and add metro to your hospital tank?


Again, good luck.
 
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Blueskys001

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"With respect to anyone who would like to be certain, almost all “proper” fish diagnostic procedures are done post mortem so unless you want to wait to be sure I would start treating. "

This hits the nail on the head. Unless you have fish anesthetic laying around(Tricane) you will have trouble getting a skin scrape biopsy without injuring your buddy.

Treat this fish for brook! Your are already employing an empirical shotgun therapy approach(multiple antibiotics with no idea which one will work based only on the macroscopic appearance of the fish's skin). If you really want to do everything you can to save this fish, why would you not do a quick rally bath and add metro to your hospital tank?


Again, good luck.
Thanks for all the replies.
I'm getting confused I ordered the cocktail bomb which I had over nighted. That I was initially slapped by some for not initially using. Is that not going to kill brooks too? I know mixing medications is deadly...
 

BlueDamselReef

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Could be that the fish is just old and in physical/social distress. Not to be insensitive. But if it's not brook, velvet, infection... etc. Then it could just be simple age/deterioration. Fish had a long life, so be glad about that.

Screenshot_20190829-134231_Samsung Internet.jpg Screenshot_20190829-134321_Samsung Internet.jpg
 
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Blueskys001

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Guys I have a video uploaded and some photos. I do see a small white spec for the past two days on the side of fish almost attached. It's not white but more gray
20190829_140144.jpg 20190829_140143.jpg 20190829_135437.jpg 20190829_135326.jpg
 
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Blueskys001

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"With respect to anyone who would like to be certain, almost all “proper” fish diagnostic procedures are done post mortem so unless you want to wait to be sure I would start treating. "

This hits the nail on the head. Unless you have fish anesthetic laying around(Tricane) you will have trouble getting a skin scrape biopsy without injuring your buddy.

Treat this fish for brook! Your are already employing an empirical shotgun therapy approach(multiple antibiotics with no idea which one will work based only on the macroscopic appearance of the fish's skin). If you really want to do everything you can to save this fish, why would you not do a quick rally bath and add metro to your hospital tank?


Again, good luck.
Can you please check my video
 
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Blueskys001

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To expand, if you were to put gloves on, catch the fish in your hand, and rub a finger on the area that’s infected, then wipe this on a slide, I’d imagine this would give you a good idea of what may be going on, microscopically. If you wanted to make more certain you got something, use the flat side of a toothpick to gently, yet firmly (oxymoron I know) scrape the side that’s infected and place this on your microscope slide.

One project I worked on involved analysis of devil ray mucous. Initially the collections weren’t invasive at all. Unfortunately we realized the enzyme we were looking for was only produced when the ray was injured. We had to puncture (small puncture and it was healed in less than 2 days) the fins to start the production in order to study it in the mucous.

The collection should be more non-invasive for your clownfish, but obviously you don’t need to puncture your fish to look for microorganisms around the infected area.

I do agree that it probably doesn’t matter what it is, she needs to be treated. My only concern is whether it will be a recurring issue due to an underlying issue and how to best avoid future infections.
Can you please check my video sorry I don't know how to tag people I'm new to the forum.
 

MnFish1

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Thanks for all the replies.
I'm getting confused I ordered the cocktail bomb which I had over nighted. That I was initially slapped by some for not initially using. Is that not going to kill brooks too? I know mixing medications is deadly...
One problem is that many of these proprietary remedies people seem to be recommending don't list the ingredients of the 'medication'. For example:

Ruby Rally - contains: a proprietary method that renders RALLY ™ much more effective than the sum of its parts -- i.e., acriflavine + aminoacridine + an activator (miniscule amount of formalin) -- for the control of external parasites and bacterial fin and tail rot. (Ruby rally does not have a lot of formaldehyde - and requires a high dose - as a dip) - which is SIMILAR to =

Paraguard - which contains 'Aldehydes' (but not formaldehyde) - and malachite green - can be used as a constant treatment - or as a dip - In a concentrated form.

Both of these medications (contrary to using formaldehyde alone) - have positive and negative reviews for treating Brookynella (as well as infections)

According to at least one article:
Treatment
There are varying suggestions on how to treat an aquarium that has been infested with Brooklynella. They range from adding copper, malachite green, and other remedies, with some of those recommended being used in conjunction with formaldehyde. The consensus is that the best and most effective treatment for Brooklynella is formaldehyde alone.

Formalin is a 37% solution of formaldehyde gas dissolved in water with methanol added as a stabilizer. It has been found to be an effective treatment for Brooklynella as well as other parasitic diseases. However, formalin is a very powerful chemical and should be used very carefully. Make sure you fully know how to treat ich diseased fish with formalin so that you follow the proper instructions and take the correct safety measures. Typically a standard formalin solution is mixed with either fresh or saltwater in a separate treatment container. Initially, all fish are given a quick dip in the formalin at a higher concentration, followed by continued treatment in a prolonged bath of formalin at a lower concentration in a quarantine tank (QT). Of course, the longer the fish are exposed to the formalin treatment, the more effective it will be at eliminating this disease.

If a formalin solution is not available for immediate use, temporary relief may be provided by giving fish a freshwater dip or bath. Even though this treatment will not cure the disease, it can help to remove some of the parasites, as well as reduce the amount of mucus in the gills to assist with respiration problems. Once the initial dip or bath is done, place the fish into a QT under hyposalinity treatment to help keep any possible new free-swimming protists from infecting the fish again, and then obtain a formalin medication as soon as possible to begin treatment.

It is not recommended to use antibiotics in conjunction with either Paraguard or Ruby Reef Rally - or Formaldehyde.

IMO - the cocktail 'bomb' - is indeed a 'bomb' (i.e. a lot of antibiotics - not a 'bad bomb). I would suggest that you have already treated what could have been brookynella with the paraguard.

Now - use the 'bomb' to treat remaining brookynella as well as various bacteria. You need to clean the current tank you've had the paraguard in - or start a new sterile QT tank before adding the bomb antibiotics - as directed.

@Blueskys001 Dont get too lost on multiple recommendations. You seems to have been proceeding in the manner you needed to (i.e. no access to various things, etc).

My experience with most of these types of diseases - is that even with the best treatment available immediately - they are often fatal - so - given the condition your fish was in at the start - I think you're doing a great job. IME - when one fish gets a 'parasite - as some are suggesting this is' - out of the blue - with no additions, no stress, etc - it means there is an underlying problem with the fish - and the prognosis is much worse.
 

MnFish1

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Can you please check my photos and video.

Thank you
The fish looks 'better' than I thought it would. Here is a paragraph on 'what brookynella looks like'. Did your fishes disease progress in this manner? or differently?

Symptoms of Brooklynella in Fish
Most similar symptomatically to Oodinium, this is also a parasite that primarily attacks the gills first. At the onset, fish may scrape up against objects, rapid respiration develops, and fish often gasp for air at the surface as the gills become clogged with mucus. Very quickly the fish will become lethargic, refuse to eat, and its colors will fade. The most noticeable difference that sets Brooklynella apart from Oodinium is the heavy amount of slime that is produced by a fish that has contracted this parasite. As the disease progresses, a thick whitish mucus covers the body. This will usually start at the head and spread outward across the entire body. Skin lesions appear and it is not uncommon for signs of secondary bacterial infections to arise, such as redness and fin rot.

Second - is the fish improving 'at all' - staying the same or 'getting worse'?

I've given you my 'recommendations' - Do a dip with paraguard (the stronger concentration - as noted in the instructions on the Seachem website - followed by the antibiotic treatment in a clean (sterilized) tank.
 
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Durandal

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Is it just me, or does the video seem to show a significant reduction in the brook like white coating, compared to the photos posted earlier?

If paraguard has aldehydes in it, maybe it does have brook but you have knocked it down(not necessarily out).

The continues loss of scales is troubling. Antibiotic therapy can't be initiated soon enough!
 

Durandal

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My experience using rally to treat a petco sourced brook infected clown fish resulted in the immediate disappearance of the white coating. Without a microscope to confirm the organism I suspect that this rapid change in appearance upon aldehyde/rally treatment, due to rapid die off of parasites, may be one of the best indicators for the presence of brook.
 
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Blueskys001

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Is it just me, or does the video seem to show a significant reduction in the brook like white coating, compared to the photos posted earlier?

If paraguard has aldehydes in it, maybe it does have brook but you have knocked it down(not necessarily out).

The continues loss of scales is troubling. Antibiotic therapy can't be initiated soon enough!
The fish gills looked less inflamed today and when I went over to tank I could tell she wants me to feed her. She ate just a little more than yesterday. There is something odd on the side of fish. Not looking like brooks and could just be part of the coat but seems attached. I don't want to stress the fish out with net and catch it. I'm waiting for one medications to come that mixed with the food. Continues to mostly swim head down unless I'm at the tank.
 
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Blueskys001

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The fish gills looked less inflamed today and when I went over to tank I could tell she wants me to feed her. She ate just a little more than yesterday. There is something odd on the side of fish. Not looking like brooks and could just be part of the coat but seems attached. I don't want to stress the fish out with net and catch it. I'm waiting for one medications to come that mixed with the food. Continues to mostly swim head down unless I'm at the tank.
 
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Blueskys001

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****My plans are to empty the tank. Stop paraguard and start the cocktail bomb everyone told me to go with*** soon as it gets here. I just like to try one feeding mixed with antibiotics before the fish is stressed out and won't eat so haven't emptied the tank yet.
 
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Durandal

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To me this fish looks like it is improving / responding to paraguard therapy. Which is wonderful! I hope things continue to improve.

Be super careful to not kill your 10 year old fish that is on the rebound with an ammo spike in the hospital tank. The antibiotic cocktail you are about to use will definitely wipe out any transplanted bio filter, so daily 100% water changes will be necessary. Make sure you are ready in terms of water and salt. And you should definitely acquire a seachem ammonia badge.

If she continues to improve with paraguard therapy, maybe a less aggressive antibiotic therapy would be indicated?

In my experience there are several antibiotics that can be used that won't wipe out a well established bio-filter. I have used seachem sourced metroplex and kanamycin concurrently with once every 48 hour dosage for two weeks without any ammo spike. This 10 gal tank received ~7 lb of live rock from the DT and a hang on back that had been seeding on the DT for several months. I would not count on any bacteria in a bottle solution being effective in the presence of antibiotics other than maybe metro(only active vs anaerobes and some protozoans).
 
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Blueskys001

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To me this fish looks like it is improving / responding to paraguard therapy. Which is wonderful! I hope things continue to improve.

Be super careful to not kill your 10 year old fish that is on the rebound with an ammo spike in the hospital tank. The antibiotic cocktail you are about to use will definitely wipe out any transplanted bio filter, so daily 100% water changes will be nessisary. Make sure you are ready in terms of water and salt. And you should definitely acquire a seachem ammonia badge.

If she continues to improve with paraguard therapy, maybe a less aggressive antibiotic therapy would be indicated?

In my experience there are several antibiotics that can be used that won't wipe out a well established bio-filter. I have used seachem sourced metroplex and kanamycin concurrently with once every 48 hour dosage for two weeks without any ammo spike. This 10 gal tank received ~7 lb of live rock from the DT and a hang on back that had been seeding on the DT for several months. I would not count on any bacteria in a bottle solution being effective in the presence of antibiotics other than maybe metro(only active vs anaerobes and some protozoans).
Honestly no. I don't have that much salt. Maybe enough for one more water change and I'm right in the path of the hurricane in my main display I can pump all the water out of the sump. It's rather large. Someone who breeds similar clowns told me to go with paraguard and dose with prime that's how I ended up here with this treatment. This is a C-Quest Line Onyx Percula. I've only ever seen one. What if I skip furan 2 and use the other products and continue with paraguard? I'll call seachem and see what they say.

Thank you guys are all your help
 

MnFish1

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****My plans are to empty the tank. Stop paraguard and start the cocktail bomb everyone told me to go with*** soon as it gets here. I just like to try one feeding mixed with antibiotics before the fish is stressed out and won't eat so haven't emptied the tank yet.
Remember - you need to 'sterilize the tank' and filter before adding 'the bomb'. and then add fresh saltwater. You will need to be careful with ammonia - as these antibiotics will interfere with nitrifying bacteria.
 

MnFish1

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My experience using rally to treat a petco sourced brook infected clown fish resulted in the immediate disappearance of the white coating. Without a microscope to confirm the organism I suspect that this rapid change in appearance upon aldehyde/rally treatment, due to rapid die off of parasites, may be one of the best indicators for the presence of brook.
The interesting thing is that Ruby Rally contains 'miniscule' amounts of formaldehyde. (Which surprised me). Perhaps acriflavine plays more of a role than formaldehyde.
 

Durandal

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I don't think you should be mixing para guard and antibiotics in the same tank, pretty sure seachem will tell you as much. I like the idea of periodic para guard or rally baths combined with the presence of antibiotic(s) in the hospital tank. The problem is that aldehydes are reactive, adding extra organics(antibiotics) will likely form lots of biproducts(maybe toxic?) and almost certainly inactivating the aldehyde.


The water and salt thing is no joke, hospital tanks using powerful antibiotic cocktails need frequent high % changes.

While your out buying salt, I would just buy a new 10 gal tank so you don't have to worry about bringing parasites over with inadequate cleaning. The idea that sometimes aldehyde treatment followed by a clean transfer is curative relies on the clean part.
 

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