10 year old clown fish is very ill. Please help ASAP. May die...

Durandal

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The interesting thing is that Ruby Rally contains 'miniscule' amounts of formaldehyde. (Which surprised me). Perhaps acriflavine plays more of a role than formaldehyde.
Acriflavine was used to treat sleeping sickness in WWI, and is being investigated as a potential potentiator of quinine drug action vs malaria(wikipedia, ;)). It may have synergistic actions with other anti-parasitics. I think it is a great thing that it manages to reduce the required dose of formaldehyde for anti-parasitic action so likely puts our fish under significantly less formaldehyde toxicity stress. This reduced toxicity in turn allows for safe frequent application of the bath. It is likely easier to maintain oxygen levels in a rally bath as well, again because there is less formaldehyde.
 
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MnFish1

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I don't think you should be mixing para guard and antibiotics in the same tank, pretty sure seachem will tell you as much. I like the idea of periodic para guard or rally baths combined with the presence of antibiotic(s) in the hospital tank. The problem is that aldehydes are reactive, adding extra organics(antibiotics) will likely form lots of biproducts(maybe toxic?) and almost certainly inactivating the aldehyde.


The water and salt thing is no joke, hospital tanks using powerful antibiotic cocktails need frequent high % changes.

While your out buying salt, I would just buy a new 10 gal tank so you don't have to worry about bringing parasites over with inadequate cleaning. The idea that sometimes aldehyde treatment followed by a clean transfer is curative relies on the clean part.
Correct me if im wrong - when you take the fish out to do a 'bath' in whatever - isnt the standard to then clean the tank from which it came - re-dose whatever was in that tank - so as not to merely 're-parasitize' the fish? Note to @Blueskys001 dont let this question dissuade you from what you're doing - I was just asking @Durandal
 
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Blueskys001

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Hi everyone I called Seachem and I can't tell you how helpful they were. I talked with someone who sounded like an absolute expert in fish dieses.

For starters some general information they told me Prime breaks down in 48 hours, Paraguard 24 hours, and all their medications can be used together but the more you use the more stress on the fish.

They have heard of the cocktail treatment on the forum and call it the "shotgun" approach.
After coming to the forum reviewing the video and pictures Seachem said basically "this looks to be a classic case of severe bacterial infection." And advised again the more medications I use the harder the stress is on the fish and there that there is no point using medications for something the fish doesn't have." I was also advised not to even use metroplex but kanaplex would give me the solution I needed and to stop paraguard as it wasn't needed.

They would make zero comments about furan 2.

After telling them I've seen some positive results with paraguard.

They still suggested kanaplex *only* as the support was rather confident in bacterial infection paraguard wasn't even needed but upon my insistence I've seen some improvement advised I could continue both I wanted to.

That that's what I've heard from their side. I wish I had something to bind the food but I couldn't get focus overnight from Amazon.
@Durandal @MnFish1 @Bleigh

Come on guys lets save my fish... I had him from since he was a baby. I know some on here say give up but I say no. A real fighter and I love that little fish. I know maybe the fish doesn't look like much it is.
 
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Durandal

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The clean transfer is certainly essential, especially after the first bath. Some think that clean transfers after rally / aldehyde baths are curative, but lots of resources state that follow up therapy is nessisary.

Follow up therapy with metrandizole is a very common recommendation.


Others recommend dosing rally or formaldehyde into the new hospital tank to prevent reinfection by parasites not killed in the bath.



I have always followed the first rally bath with a transfer into a clean tank with metro and ramped into copper(mainly for potential latent ich), and have done follow up rally baths, every other day, for about two weeks. I have not had to perform a second clean transfer. In any case, I think some kind of follow up therapy should follow the initial bath to prevent reinfection by parasites that survive the bath on the fish.

Fortunately therapy with antibiotics is compatible with metrandizole, I understand seachem recommends stopping metro, but I wouldn't because it is likely quite effective vs brook and may prevent re-infection as you move your fish out of the mystery aldehyde contained in paraguard(maybe effective?) and into a clean tank.
 

resortez

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From the vid & pics, looks like irritation from a bacterial infection, I would lean towards fungal by the looks of the redness of its gills & jaggy ends of its fins. I have seen these types of infections occur from NO3 burns but your numbers are all green so I would treat for a fungal infection. Its swimming pattern looks normal & the mention that it still has an appetite is a good sign. As long as it feeds, it can continue fighting the infection. A suggestion is to feed vitamin enriched foods & some antibiotics to assist the fish with the fight. Good luck.
 

MnFish1

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Hi everyone I called Seachem and I can't tell you how helpful they were. I talked with someone who sounded like an absolute expert in fish dieses.

For starters some general information they told me Prime breaks down in 48 hours, Paraguard 24 hours, and all their medications can be used together but the more you use the more stress on the fish.

They have heard of the cocktail treatment on the forum and call it the "shotgun" approach.
After coming to the forum reviewing the video and pictures Seachem said basically "this looks to be a classic case of severe bacterial infection." And advised again the more medications I use the harder the stress is on the fish and there that there is no point using medications for something the fish doesn't have." I was also advised not to even use metroplex but kanaplex would give me the solution I needed and to stop paraguard as it wasn't needed.

They would make zero comments about furan 2.

After telling them I've seen some positive results with paraguard.

They still suggested kanaplex *only* as the support was rather confident in bacterial infection paraguard wasn't even needed but upon my insistence I've seen some improvement advised I could continue both I wanted to.

That that's what I've heard from their side. I wish I had something to bind the food but I couldn't get focus overnight from Amazon.
@Durandal @MnFish1 @Bleigh

Come on guys lets save my fish... I had him from since he was a baby. I know some on here say give up but I say no. A real fighter and I love that little fish. I know maybe the fish doesn't look like much it is.
Thats why I recommended Seachem - they have a great laboratory - hopefully you got some good advice.
 

Bleigh

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Hi everyone I called Seachem and I can't tell you how helpful they were. I talked with someone who sounded like an absolute expert in fish dieses.

For starters some general information they told me Prime breaks down in 48 hours, Paraguard 24 hours, and all their medications can be used together but the more you use the more stress on the fish.

They have heard of the cocktail treatment on the forum and call it the "shotgun" approach.
After coming to the forum reviewing the video and pictures Seachem said basically "this looks to be a classic case of severe bacterial infection." And advised again the more medications I use the harder the stress is on the fish and there that there is no point using medications for something the fish doesn't have." I was also advised not to even use metroplex but kanaplex would give me the solution I needed and to stop paraguard as it wasn't needed.

They would make zero comments about furan 2.

After telling them I've seen some positive results with paraguard.

They still suggested kanaplex *only* as the support was rather confident in bacterial infection paraguard wasn't even needed but upon my insistence I've seen some improvement advised I could continue both I wanted to.

That that's what I've heard from their side. I wish I had something to bind the food but I couldn't get focus overnight from Amazon.
@Durandal @MnFish1 @Bleigh

Come on guys lets save my fish... I had him from since he was a baby. I know some on here say give up but I say no. A real fighter and I love that little fish. I know maybe the fish doesn't look like much it is.

I’m so glad you had a positive experience with them. Did they have any idea about what may be the underlying cause of a sudden bacterial infection. Again, that’s my biggest concern. Is it just that fish’s immune systems wear down as they get older?

I hate treating cocktails as well, but without knowing what a fish may have, it’s sometimes the last resort. Seems like the person you got on the phone was far more experienced with such things. It was awesome that they took a look at your thread to see exactly what the fish looked like. Kudos to you for documenting it so well, also.

I’m confident that you’re doing what it takes to ensure your fish pulls through. His skin looks far better to me as well.
 

bluprntguy

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If this were me, I'd do kanaplex and metro at the very least.

As has been noted previously, you need to have salt and water on hand. The QT tank will likely require large water changes over the next couple of weeks to combat ammonia. You should test that daily.
 

MnFish1

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If this were me, I'd do kanaplex and metro at the very least.

As has been noted previously, you need to have salt and water on hand. The QT tank will likely require large water changes over the next couple of weeks to combat ammonia. You should test that daily.
Curious - what do you think metroplex would be treating - and what would kanaplex be treating? (i.e, why not the furan 2)
 
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Blueskys001

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I'm only going by what the company told me after reviewing everything. They themselves after reviewing the thread photos and video said only use kanaplex and didn't believe this to be any type parasite but a bacterial infection. The person sounded like absolute expert in fish disease. Kanaplex is only a 3 time treatment every 48 hours. I seen two answers seachems website on combing kanaplex with paraguard. 1 "They never recommend mixing medications." 2nd Support person said in the forum answered someone "technically you can use kanaplex with paraguard but it's not recommend and to see if you can feed the kanaplex in this situation to lesson medication in the water column" and 3rd answer I received was over the phone "some customers have treated with both paraguard and kanaplex." Seachem literally begged me not to add metroplex after viewing the fish and said stop paraguard it was only me insisting to use both they said "some of are their customers have used both together and if you feel you want to take that course of action you can." Seachem kept stressing " why treat your fish for something it doesn't have?"
 

Paul Sands

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I'm only going by what the company told me after reviewing everything. They themselves after reviewing the thread photos and video said only use kanaplex and didn't believe this to be any type parasite but a bacterial infection. The person sounded like absolute expert in fish disease. Kanaplex is only a 3 time treatment every 48 hours. I seen two answers seachems website on combing kanaplex with paraguard. 1 "They never recommend mixing medications." 2nd Support person said in the forum answered someone "technically you can use kanaplex with paraguard but it's not recommend and to see if you can feed the kanaplex in this situation to lesson medication in the water column" and 3rd answer I received was over the phone "some customers have treated with both paraguard and kanaplex." Seachem literally begged me not to add metroplex after viewing the fish and said stop paraguard it was only me insisting to use both they said "some of are their customers have used both together and if you feel you want to take that course of action you can." Seachem kept stressing " why treat your fish for something it doesn't have?"
seems like you made up your mind, but they’ve also told you to treat with kanaplex. have you done that yet?
 

Bbfishb81

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Salt water fish can handle as low as 1.009 for salinity. Most parasites dont like that either. I've used hypo-salanity myself as a QT, when I wanted to use meds as only a last resort.
 

Durandal

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For what it is worth, the last two times I have had a skin infection on a fish as a result of disease or injury, I have tried kanamycin before my usual carbenicillin / ciprofloxacin go-to antibiotics and it has cleared things right up. I haven't needed to escalate to the stronger broad spectrum rapidly bactericidal antibiotics. The principle advantage of this has been I haven't needed to do frequent water changes because kanamycin leaves the bio-filter intact.

It is effective against allot of gram-negative cocci that cause disease and I am starting to like it allot. That doesn’t mean that it will necessarily work on what your fish has. Metronidazole treats anaerobic gram positives and ciliate protists like brook. It also doesn't wipe out the bio-filter.

I think you should seriously consider dosing metroplex in conjunction with whatever other antibiotic(s) you choose to employ to prevent possible brook reinfection. It will also protect your fish from opportunistic uremia infection during recovery. Metroplex is incredibly safe and doesn’t interact with kanamycin.
 
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Blueskys001

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Salt water fish can handle as low as 1.009 for salinity. Most parasites dont like that either. I've used hypo-salanity myself as a QT, when I wanted to use meds as only a last resort.
Hi I did treat with kanaplex tonight when it finally showed up there was still some paraguard in the water left to break down as it was about 12 hours before I treated with it. I was told paraguard completely breaks down after 24 hours so it doesn't actually build up.

I thought a lot about it. I'm going to stop the paraguard treatment and listen to what they told me and see what happens.
seems like you made up your mind, but they’ve also told you to treat with kanaplex. have you done that yet?
[/QUOT

Interested with the kenaplex

For what it is worth, the last two times I have had a skin infection on a fish as a result of disease or injury, I have tried kanamycin before my usual carbenicillin / ciprofloxacin go-to antibiotics and it has cleared things right up. I haven't needed to escalate to the stronger broad spectrum rapidly bactericidal antibiotics. The principle advantage of this has been I haven't needed to do frequent water changes because kanamycin leaves the bio-filter intact.

It is effective against allot of gram-negative cocci that cause disease and I am starting to like it allot. That doesn’t mean that it will necessarily work on what your fish has. Metronidazole treats anaerobic gram positives and ciliate protists like brook. It also doesn't wipe out the bio-filter.

I think you should seriously consider dosing metroplex in conjunction with whatever other antibiotic(s) you choose to employ to prevent possible brook reinfection. It will also protect your fish from opportunistic uremia infection during recovery. Metroplex is incredibly safe and doesn’t interact with kanamycin.

Hi thanks for checkin all the advice it's greatly appreciate I found this article on gram b negative bacterial infections I thought would be helpful to all.

Basically antibiotics gram b work on stopping the bacteria from feeding this causing not to be able to produce or sustain it's self losing energy and dying but it's the fishes emmune system that fixes the problem.

So I'm not expecting an overnight recovery here could take takes before I see a big improvement.

The thing is I'll tell you something that happen to me. When I first got the live rock in my tank it came from someone breaking down a well established reef and the rock was from the Carrabian. I would move the rock around often setting up tank making structures. I noticed the rock was sharp as glass and would leave little slices on my finger tips. Every time this happened within hours I felt like I had low grade fever. First few times I thought nothing of it and than I couldn't deny it so I went online and found these rocks are covered in bacteria and you should use only thick robber gloves when handling them. So I know our tanks are loaded with bacteria just waiting to enter our systems or a fish soon as we have an open wound or soar.

I believe this is what weakened my fishes immune system the soars caused by the skin irritation from the leathers and the infection entered there over time things just got worse. My fish is old I'm just hoping against all odds it's fights it off. When I put the fish back in the tank I've already bought deviders to sperate it from those corals.

Take a look at this write up it sounds exactly like what my fish has. I think a lot of the recovery was just getting the fish away from what was irritating it's skin. https://www.algone.com/bacteria-and-antibiotics-in-the-aquarium
Screenshot_20190830-115244.jpg
 
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Blueskys001

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Hi the fish is still in the hospital tank and getting better on the outside but one worry though his digestion seems to have slowed down a lot... The other thing I find very troubling he often swims head down tail up especially during the night.

I don't over feed the fish because it seems to make the problem worse and I tried to get him to eat peas but he would have nothing of it.

Thanks for asking
 

MnFish1

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Hi the fish is still in the hospital tank and getting better on the outside but one worry though his digestion seems to have slowed down a lot... The other thing I find very troubling he often swims head down tail up especially during the night.

I don't over feed the fish because it seems to make the problem worse and I tried to get him to eat peas but he would have nothing of it.

Thanks for asking
What are you treating it with?
 
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Blueskys001

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Hi
Paraguarda andkanaplex hes getting stronger but something is wrong with his swimming. Luckily maybe not bladder diseases I've read and seen fish online where the fish can't get to bottom of the tank or stays on their side at the top. I think it has something to do with the digestion.

I notice when the fish hasn't eaten he swims side ways and normal like in the video but after I feed him he swims awkward like something is weighing him down and often with an odd bouncey issue
 

MnFish1

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Hi
Paraguarda andkanaplex hes getting stronger but something is wrong with his swimming. Luckily maybe not bladder diseases I've read and seen fish online where the fish can't get to bottom of the tank or stays on their side at the top. I think it has something to do with the digestion.

I notice when the fish hasn't eaten he swims side ways and normal like in the video but after I feed him he swims awkward like something is weighing him down and often with an odd bouncey issue
Was curious if you decided to go with all of the antibiotics - or kanaplex alone, etc etc. Thanks Good luck
 
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Blueskys001

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Well this is what happen... Paraguard I treated for about 7 days which seemed to only stabilize my clown.

Kanaplex I tried for a good six days at the 5th day paraguard mark and fishes health improved but stalled and other issues seemed to develope like bouncy.

I was at a loss...

I waited 24hours for the paraguard to break down and treated with metroplex and the clown had a bad reaction like heavy breathing, red gills again and thought maybe I might loose the fish so I stopped after one treatment.

Then I picked up the box of API furan 2 and looked at it and got a good feeling... So dosed the tank and by the next day the fish was swimming normally I was shocked! By the 2nd day the fish was basically floating at the top of the water feeding like a shark. The skin didn't heal fully though, looked very tender then and now and the color has improved but only mildly but still overall a big change.

To be safe for the next 3 days while on Furan 2 I soaked the food with kanaplex and metroplex and there didn't seem to be any bad reactions until the fish just refused to eat anymore of the treated food so I stopped.

I gave the fish an extra dose of furan 2 on the 5th day ( which was yesterday 12am here) for about 6 hours and than I put the fish in a new sump that has one compartment with two black sides just the front and back are clear it was meant to be a refiguium it's really slick looking and I put his new anemone down there it's a good 8-10 gallons with a full spectrum light over it. I was a little worried about adding the anemone because I read the coat on a clowns skin is what protects them than I also read elsewhere all clowns get stung but over a few days build up resistance so adding it seemed like the best thing to do so maybe he would just rest in it like old times and calm down it's not huge like it could eat him anyway...

but like I said. So far the color didn't come back and the skin still has some pale white patches.

I believe the fish had and may still have hemorrhagic septicemia and I'm nearly certain of it in all my searching... Thats why Furan 2 worked.

The fish is old but a real fighter I seen much stronger and younger fish die on people by only moving them it was an amazing fight to live but age does seem to be playing into the larger picture here.

I couldn't wait to get him out of all that toxic soup of medication and back into prestine water. I changed all the filters and added a new chempure blue and now I'm just monitoring and hoping for the best and the fish has been separated from the leathers which I know attributed to the problem over time.

I know it sounds crazy but 10 years is a long time and somehow that fish has bonded to me in some way because when things were real bad I would sit and watch the fish and even when my Nemo couldn't swim upright he would swim against the glass next to where ever I was at.

Will wait and see and hope for the best. I've done everything I could.
 

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