1st reef tank, needs to be done cheap (I keep freshwater planted ecosystem aquariums)

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NoahLikesFish

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When I get home I’m going to tell my mom about my plans so I can start budgeting. I might try dry scaping my tank with some towels or something to get a feel for how I want my LR. Most likely it’s just going to be a jumble of lines with the holes from the pipes being filled with LR. im also going to make a couple bottles for the tank because they look cool. most of my plan is inspired @Paul B now because I like how natural his tanks are and how simple they are and the types of fish he keeps in them
 

dhnguyen

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I might do very basic lps but that’s about it
LPS is a whole other ball game altogether. If you plan on keeping LPS then you're going to need to rethink your strategy of using DSB with mud and reverse UG. LPS corals are a lot less forgiving than softies where water quality is concerned. Honestly I don't even know why you're adamant on using such an antiquated method of reef keeping. DSB with mud and reverse UG haven't been used since the late 80's and early 90's. We know better now and we have much better and more efficient ways of doing things.
 

MaxTremors

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If I do 20 lb of live rock on a skeleton of pvc concrete then I do the 75g filter a reverse UG then a powerhead I run carbon and chaeto in the hob then I get floodlights in A high kelvin then use natural gulf sand sourced by me then the gulf rock will I have a healthy tank?
That would be better. I don’t know how necessary the DSB is (I guess it depends on how deep you’re thinking), but going deeper than 3” or so isn’t going to get you any more microfauna. 3” is plenty for any sand sifting snails or fish. Most of the microfauna isn’t going to go deeper than that because it’s an incredibly oxygen poor environment (in nature there would be some microfauna and microbes in there, but in an aquarium the gas exchanges that happen in anerobic conditions can be dangerous to the aerobic microfauna (again the methane and other toxic gases)). If it were my tank, I’d do three inches of sand/crushed coral/mud (I’d only seed it with some mud, only put a cup or two, any more and any time it gets disturbed you’re going to end up with silt all over your corals/macro algaes, which can irritate them). If you only do 3”, you don’t need the UG filter, and you don’t need to put the rock on PVC.

As far as the lights, it’s not as simple as just putting a blue filter over it. Again, if it were my tank, and I was trying to get by as I inexpensively as possible, I’d buy a cheap Chinese black box on Amazon (around $100, though you might be able to find something cheaper). The reason why is twofold. First, you need both the intensity and color spectrum to grow corals (macro is less specific in its needs), but secondly because it will be more aesthetically pleasing, both in terms of the light spectrum (a yellow/white light is going to make all of your corals look brown) and in terms of the tank itself (it’ll look less janky/diy). The lighting, liverock, and flow are the most parts of the kind of tank you’re going for.

I do think the HOB filter is a necessity, or more specifically having somewhere to put some carbon is necessary. Soft corals participate in coral warfare just like LPS and SPS, but they do it by releasing toxins. Running carbon will neutralize any toxins, plus it will make your water clear. Running it in an HOB will provide more flow as well.

I do absolutely think you can get the tank going for $450, but you might have to adjust a few things. Maybe buy 10lbs of live rock and then 10lbs of dry rock, the live rock will seed the dry rock. Also, you’ll need a refractometer, salt, and testing equipment (this might not be necessary for just softies, but it’s always good to be able to troubleshoot when your tank isn’t doing great (and it’s not if, it’s when, it happens to us all). Also, a lid is necessary, a lot of fish are prone to jumping (all fish are capable of doing it), plus it will significantly cut down on evaporation. I would also recommend an RO/DI unit, you can get one for $60, if that’s not in the budget right now, you can buy RO/DI water from the lfs (or use distilled).

I know you have an idea of what you want and how you’re going to do it, but trust me when I say that everyone here just wants you to succeed, no one has any vested interest in selling you anything you don’t need. But being dismissive of people’s advice, or claiming that skimmers or reactors or whatever are snake oil is, frankly, ignorant. My advice to you would be to listen and be open to adjusting your original plan, again, everyone here just wants you to succeed. At the end of the day, we’re talking about keeping the animals in our care healthy and happy, the well-being of the animals in your care has to be the number one priority, and your decision making has to center around that, budgetary concerns (while obviously important) are secondary.

Again, I think you can get the tank going for $450, but you’re going to need to adjust your original plan a little so as to cover the basics.
 

NashobaTek

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antiquated method of reef keeping. DSB with mud and reverse UG haven't been used since the late 80's and early 90's
Just because it's old school doesn't mean it's not a good system to use. There's a lot of us who don't think all of the new equipment and expensive gear is worth changing something that works.
 

dhnguyen

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When I get home I’m going to tell my mom about my plans so I can start budgeting. I might try dry scaping my tank with some towels or something to get a feel for how I want my LR. Most likely it’s just going to be a jumble of lines with the holes from the pipes being filled with LR. im also going to make a couple bottles for the tank because they look cool. most of my plan is inspired @Paul B now because I like how natural his tanks are and how simple they are and the types of fish he keeps in them
his tank is also A LOT larger than yours will be so there is that.
You're dealing with a very small tank and that means a lot less room for error. When things go wrong they go wrong very fast in a small tank.
 

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I’m going to do my friend’s smart strategy of just starving the fish. My friend has a green wild mandarin that eats flake. And a engineer that eats flake. Are the bbs hard to feed? I Might rig a auto feeder so the pearls could auto feed. And like it would slowly siphon and the baby shrimp go out into the tank
Remember that these are living beings. They feel pain and you are their caretaker. Starving them until they eat something that is convenient for you is immoral. Beyond that, just read some threads on mandarins. There are probably dozens of threads on this forum from a person new to the hobby who was going to teach their mandarins to eat pellets. Best I can tell (and I am not expert so I am just going off what I have read), this strategy almost always ends in death by starvation for the fish. Its a pretty terrible way to go.

A person new to saltwater shouldn't be a pioneer. Leave that to people who have enough experience to know what they are doing. Why don't you go with the Fluval tank? It has built in filtration and built in light. It gets good reviews and is fairly cheap. You can gain experience with a couple of small clowns and a cleaner shrimp and then move up to something bigger and better later. In a couple of years you can get a job and be able to afford something much better.
 

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Sharpnose in my context was meant to really cover the canthigaster genus. Yes a 20g is to small long term for any of them, but you could probably get away with it for a while with just a small puffer and a goby.
Definitely. Probably wouldn't work if soft corals are added though, all puffers tend to be destructive and develop an appetite for coral
 

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Okay so one more post...

I gave you an absolute fool proof recipe for a nice softy build for your budget. Here is another one with your macro dreams and using an existing 20g

Aragonite, salt and heater $75
Light $40

$120 for 20lbs liverock
Jebao powerhead $60
Take your pick of macro from live-plants.com
Reefcleaners.org for some ceriths, nass., and 2 peppermint shrimp.
Add a bottom dwelling goby and a damsel.

A DSB and RUGF are opposite approaches and both are dated and neither is really suitable for this build. I'm actually a fan of RUGF approach with crushed coral but it's not appropriate for the task at hand. It is good for a larger build meant to last a decade or more. DSB is a timebomb even in the best of circumstances.

You absolutely do not need to try to make a 20g nano dirty by deliberately picking bad approaches like crushed coral and adding wood to it. It'll be dirty by default. Ask anyone with a reef with every gadget and 1000s invested on here battling hair algae, the trick is keeping a tank clean. It'll be dirty without help.

I admire your enthusiasm but this hobby kicks the crap out of grown men and women with nearly unlimited budgets and time all over the world. Take the advice, or better yet recipe I handed to you, and go slow.

Get back to your school work.
 

dhnguyen

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Just because it's old school doesn't mean it's not a good system to use. There's a lot of us who don't think all of the new equipment and expensive gear is worth changing something that works.
I didn't say they it won't work but why do it when there's a better and more efficient way to do it?
I started out with DSB as well and I know well the problems it can cause.
 
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Remember that these are living beings. They feel pain and you are their caretaker. Starving them until they eat something that is convenient for you is immoral. Beyond that, just read some threads on mandarins. There are probably dozens of threads on this forum from a person new to the hobby who was going to teach their mandarins to eat pellets. Best I can tell (and I am not expert so I am just going off what I have read), this strategy almost always ends in death by starvation for the fish. Its a pretty terrible way to go.

A person new to saltwater shouldn't be a pioneer. Leave that to people who have enough experience to know what they are doing. Why don't you go with the Fluval tank? It has built in filtration and built in light. It gets good reviews and is fairly cheap. You can gain experience with a couple of small clowns and a cleaner shrimp and then move up to something bigger and better later. In a couple of years you can get a job and be able to afford something much better.

i already have a tank, im not going to waste more money on a temporary thing. by starving the mandarin I meant like for 3 days if it dosent eat keep feeding it. And it will have pods.
 

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I watched my friends podcast‘s episode about reefing and I learned a lot from it. I don’t want some zoa 9 trillion dosing products reef tank. I just want something simple and naturalistic. My plan right now is just heater eandom flow reverse UG (why is carbon important) then floodlights. 50W each like 5000 lumens or something. then monthly 25% wc and then softies and macros

If you want low maintanence zero dosing, then how do you know a macro tank will do it? If you have a tank full of algae, you will probably need extra nutrients, trace elements, or oxygen supplementation at some point.

Look at some of the macro tank threads here and you'll see people dose fertilizer, nitrate, phosphorous, to keep the things alive. They can use nutrients like crazy which is why they're useful for refugiums.

Never kept softies, but some basic internet research will tell you the carbon is to absorb toxic chemicals they can excrete to kill off competitors.

The "easy" saltwater organisms aren't easy IMO, they're just less hard and give more room to make mistakes.
 
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Could I slowly expand the stock to what I want and can I do clowns instead of damsels. I’ve heard bad things about them. And then do like a hawk fish instead of a goby?
 
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Okay so one more post...

I gave you an absolute fool proof recipe for a nice softy build for your budget. Here is another one with your macro dreams and using an existing 20g

Aragonite, salt and heater $75
Light $40

$120 for 20lbs liverock
Jebao powerhead $60
Take your pick of macro from live-plants.com
Reefcleaners.org for some ceriths, nass., and 2 peppermint shrimp.
Add a bottom dwelling goby and a damsel.

A DSB and RUGF are opposite approaches and both are dated and neither is really suitable for this build. I'm actually a fan of RUGF approach with crushed coral but it's not appropriate for the task at hand. It is good for a larger build meant to last a decade or more. DSB is a timebomb even in the best of circumstances.

You absolutely do not need to try to make a 20g nano dirty by deliberately picking bad approaches like crushed coral and adding wood to it. It'll be dirty by default. Ask anyone with a reef with every gadget and 1000s invested on here battling hair algae, the trick is keeping a tank clean. It'll be dirty without help.

I admire your enthusiasm but this hobby kicks the crap out of grown men and women with nearly unlimited budgets and time all over the world. Take the advice, or better yet recipe I handed to you, and go slow.

Get back to your school work.

Can I edit it and get a cheaper powerhead of comparable power then get a ro unit with the money I save and also add my 75-110g rated filter? And put a ton of carbon and chaeto in the filter for pods?
 

dhnguyen

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Is top off without rodi a bad idea? My water is hard and I was wondering if it would help with like calc and things when I’m not wc-ing or dosing those calcium blocks.
You don't know what else is in that water beside calcium. There could be copper and other metals that are deadly to inverts.
 

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Please take more time to develop your plan. Most people on this forum spent months researching tanks before actually getting one. Based off the stuff you're saying, you're rushing into this. Your fish stocking list is poor, for the love of god please don't put a puffer or a hawk fish into that small of a tank. Check out this video series on YouTube, his more recent videos of this tank are exactly what you're trying to replicate.

 

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Can I edit it and get a cheaper powerhead of comparable power then get a ro unit with the money I save and also add my 75-110g rated filter? And put a ton of carbon and chaeto in the filter for pods?
A jebao is basically as cheap and shoddy as you want to throw money at. I'm not an equipment elitist, just a realist. I'm using 10 year old halides and until 3 weeks ago ran ancient koralia powerheads.

Chaeto is pointless. You already are running macro in the tank. Pods will populate to their max density without predation, nothing you can do will impact that in any meaningful way one way or the other.

Carbon in the HOB is fine, don't do the pulsing or silliness with the HOB just turn it on.

On a 20g macro tank I wouldn't fuss with an RODI unit. Go buy 2 gallons of distilled every two weeks. In a year if you are still into this then do a RODI.

Fishwise go on liveaquaria go to the nanofish section pick on or two free swimmers and one bottom dweller. I pushed damsels because they will survive newbie mistakes. They can be mean but in a 20g essentially by itself there is nothing for them to be mean to. Azure, yellowtail, and a few others are pretty normal levels of aggression anyways. Clowns, especially Clarkii tend to be more aggressive than some of the more docile damsels.
 
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