2nd battle with ich! Seriously frustrated. Really need some help to save my fish!

[ReefKeeper666]

Ok so I’m gonna get the UV stealizer for my DT Tonight, buddy giving it to me is just a lil behind. Also somehow pull out all the fish and do some sort of quarantine setup. I’m still trying to figure out where I live in older home that was remodeled it’s nice and all but I am defintky low on outlets

Good luck to the Foxface. I thought they’re supposed to be ick / disease resistant? I don’t know how well your friend took care of his tank before this, but if a fish like a Foxface is getting sick in a fairly well-established tank, he could have taken care of his tank pretty poorly.

it was a friend of a friends someone I haven’t seen since. You could be right...

 

[Fishbird]

Good luck to the Foxface. I thought they’re supposed to be ick / disease resistant? I don’t know how well your friend took care of his tank before this, but if a fish like a Foxface is getting sick in a fairly well-established tank, he could have taken care of his tank pretty poorly.

I've seen you say in a few threads now that you're surprised the fish in question is sick because you thought they were supposed to be disease resistant. I think it's important to not imply that certain kinds of fish can't get sick. They all can.

In any case, whatever kind of tank the fox face came out of, it is now in a tank that is smaller than the minimum size recommended for it (a stressor), in a very heavily stocked tank (certainly a potential stressor if it can't find its own territory) and it moved recently (a stressor). If ich was present either in the new tank from another fish or if it came in on the fox face it doesn't seem surprising to me that it would be unable to fight off the parasite in these conditions.

OP, this isn't to slam you but I would seriously look up the minimum recommended tank sizes for all your fish and consider rehoming at least one or two. I'm especially thinking about your fox face, leopard wrasse and fairy wrasse. There are many kinds of leopard wrasses and fairy wrasses. A few are listed for 55 gallon tanks but many are listed with 70 or 90 gallon tanks being the minimum size. I know there are a lot of different opinions about whether you can fit a fish into a smaller tank than what their commonly listed minimum tank sizes are but I think its worth considering that those tank sizes are based on all kinds of things (does it have a long enough side for good swimming room, can it hold enough live rock to provide the food for grazers, does it have enough of a footprint to allow a territorial fish to have a territory that doesn't include the entire tank) not just if the fish will physically fit. If you're going with ice management you want to minimize stress and I think it would be hard to manage stress if fish are in a "too small" heavily stocked tank.

Good luck with the UV sterilizer! I hope it helps!

 

[ReefKeeper666]

I've seen you say in a few threads now that you're surprised the fish in question is sick because you thought they were supposed to be disease resistant. I think it's important to not imply that certain kinds of fish can't get sick. They all can.

In any case, whatever kind of tank the fox face came out of, it is now in a tank that is smaller than the minimum size recommended for it (a stressor), in a very heavily stocked tank (certainly a potential stressor if it can't find its own territory) and it moved recently (a stressor). If ich was present either in the new tank from another fish or if it came in on the fox face it doesn't seem surprising to me that it would be unable to fight off the parasite in these conditions.

OP, this isn't to slam you but I would seriously look up the minimum recommended tank sizes for all your fish and consider rehoming at least one or two. I'm especially thinking about your fox face, leopard wrasse and fairy wrasse. There are many kinds of leopard wrasses and fairy wrasses. A few are listed for 55 gallon tanks but many are listed with 70 or 90 gallon tanks being the minimum size. I know there are a lot of different opinions about whether you can fit a fish into a smaller tank than what their commonly listed minimum tank sizes are but I think its worth considering that those tank sizes are based on all kinds of things (does it have a long enough side for good swimming room, can it hold enough live rock to provide the food for grazers, does it have enough of a footprint to allow a territorial fish to have a territory that doesn't include the entire tank) not just if the fish will physically fit. If you're going with ice management you want to minimize stress and I think it would be hard to manage stress if fish are in a "too small" heavily stocked tank.

Good luck with the UV sterilizer! I hope it helps!

No offense taken. This is still a learning process for me. My only resources in real life are one other hobbyist and the people at 2 local saltwater aquarium stores.
What’s upsetting me is that I’ve gone to all these people and asked each one, how many fish can I put in a 55 gallon? generally Im told 6-10 based on size. Then Ive told them. Hey I have this this and this in my tank. Can I add more(all fish Ive bought are small), I need it to be reef safe. “ oh yeah, you can do a this that or other thing”.
So is there like a list somewhere of fish that are good for a 55 gallon?

 

[ReefKeeper666]

I really think I’ve seen the mistakes I’m making though.
1. Adding the wrong fish for my size tank
2. adding fish too quickly
3. adding too many fish.

My buddy is still standing by the polyp lab stuff. As of now I have the green killing machine 9W UV sterilizer in my sump. I’ve removed my carbon and continuing to treat with polyp lab medic(day 4). I will monitor the fish and hopefully they do Well. I have no problem rehoming a fish or 2. How long should I wait on that before they are ok to rehome?
will any of the fish survive this?

 

[Fishbird]

If you go to LiveAquaria.com and search whatever fish you’re interested in they will list the minimum recommended tank size based on standard glass tank dimensions.

One thing I’ve noticed is that people will often say a fish is fine in a particular tank size but they might forget to say that it’s fine now, as a juvenile, and you’ll need to find a new home or upgrade your tank as the fish grows. Or people forget/don’t realize that you really can’t know if a fish is going to do well in a tank until the fish is a mature adult and that can take years. I try and take all tank size recommendations from people (even on this forum) with a huge grain of salt unless they tell me they’ve had the fish in the tank with all current tankmates for two years at a minimum. If a fish has only been in a tank for a few months it could still be settling in or might very well not be old enough to be territorial yet.

There are also a lot of different philosophies about whether you should or should not get fish that you know will outgrow the tank you’re going to put them in. For me, I get attached to my fish and I don’t want to give them up, plus I don’t want to have to go through the hassle/stress of trying to catch a fish in a tank full of rock and coral in order to get it out and rehome it so I’m only interested in getting fish that can comfortably and safely spend their entire lives in my tank. There are people who swap out fish though so I think it’s important to know which camp somebody falls in before taking their advice on whether a fish will work in your tank.

There are some really good sticky threads on ich in the disease forum so I’d recommend reading those as well. Good luck!

 

[Zionas]

Rule of thumb for me is: If a fish cannot swim at least the equivalent of 6 body lengths at its maximum size and 2 body lengths at maximum size in tank depth (2.5 + is better), it’s a no-go for my tank.

However, I’m a lot more willing to consider a fish if it can swim at least 7 body lengths at maximum size. So, at least 6 body lengths front to back, 7 and up more ideal. At least 2 body lengths in depth, 2.5 and up Moreno ideal.

For example, let’s use your Mangificent Foxface. On LA it says it gets to a maximum of 9 inches or 22.5cm.

Following this rule, I would not put one in a tank below 135cm, or 54” long. In terms of width, I would not put it in a tank below 45cm or 18” in width. This is the bare minimum.

Now, if we’re talking more in ideal terms, the Magnificent Foxface should be in a tank at least 157.5cm long, or 63” long. In terms of width, it should be in a tank at least 56.25cm wide or 22.5” in width. You’ll need the standard proportions of about a 150-160 gallon tank.

Not sure if I’m on the conservative side, but I believe this is better for the fish.

 

[ReefKeeper666]

Ok so the fox face died I managed to pull his body out. Can anyone see exactly what’s wrong? Is it icy for sure?

 

[ReefKeeper666]

I’ve now lost 2 fish this morning the fox face and the scissor fish. Scissor fish was just a spine stuck to my wave maker.

 

[Viking_Reefing]

Ich really isn’t that bad unless you provide the proper environment. Doing ich management in an overcrowded tank like yours will be difficult, since there will always be a fairly high base level of stress.
Im no fan of prophylactic treating fish in QT but if you wish to maintain those stock levels that might be your only choice.

Edit: It might sound harsh but seeing that you’ve lost a couple of fish might help in managing ich long term if you choose to go that route. Just keep water quality top notch and make sure they are getting proper nutrition.

 

[ReefKeeper666]

Ich really isn’t that bad unless you provide the proper environment. Doing ich management in an overcrowded tank like yours will be difficult, since there will always be a fairly high base level of stress.
Im no fan of prophylactic treating fish in QT but if you wish to maintain those stock levels that might be your only choice.

Edit: It might sound harsh but seeing that you’ve lost a couple of fish might help in managing ich long term if you choose to go that route. Just keep water quality top notch and make sure they are getting proper nutrition.

Sadly I don’t think my tank will be over crowded much longer I am now down 3 fish. Could this be velvet ?

 

[ReefKeeper666]

Here was fix fast just before and after death. Iche or velvet?

 

[Viking_Reefing]

Sadly I don’t think my tank will be over crowded much longer I am now down 3 fish. Could this be velvet ?

It looks like it could be velvet based on how fast it’s killing your fish, if it’s velvet thats another story, it’s not something that you can manage effectively.
Kind of hard to distinguish from the pictures but a good rule of thumb is that if you can count the spots it’s ich, not it’s velvet.

 

[weamdog]

I think treating the wrong problem can be as bad as the problem itself. That being said, i have defeated ich using the methods described below (garlic,focus,metroplex). If a fish is over stressed and not eating or there were more than a few spots, a fresh water dip was done. But the key here i think is garlic as the parasites are technically vampires. I have read that ich eventually dies off after 11ish months if no new fish are introduced, i can't explain but also won't argue as my fish are all happy and healthy.

Thankfully, i don't think I've ever had to deal with velvet (i have my unconfirmed suspicions), but that is a whole new ball game.

If it’s any help, I went through the same thing several months ago with my 75 gallon tank. My LFS recommended treating the water with Seachems Metroplex dosed to the tank and then add it to the fishes food along with Seachems focus. You may also want to add some garlic to the food. Fish will not eat metroplex in the food without the Focus and Garlic. After about 3 weeks ick was gone and has not returned in 10 weeks since. I also stopped loosing fish once I started dosing. I have since setup a QT, and purchased a Grren Machine UV Sterilizer from Amazon (Much cheaper than what you’ll find at the LFS and works great. I have mine in the sump.

 

[ReefKeeper666]

It looks like it could be velvet based on how fast it’s killing your fish, if it’s velvet thats another story, it’s not something that you can manage effectively.
Kind of hard to distinguish from the pictures but a good rule of thumb is that if you can count the spots it’s ich, not it’s velvet.

He had white bumpy spots on him like 2-3 days ago.

 

[ReefKeeper666]

It looks like it could be velvet based on how fast it’s killing your fish, if it’s velvet thats another story, it’s not something that you can manage effectively.
Kind of hard to distinguish from the pictures but a good rule of thumb is that if you can count the spots it’s ich, not it’s velvet.

Ok the tomato clown now has it!! So maybe we can tell by these pictures?

 

[weamdog]

I personally cannot tell from the pics, i do not see spots. But if this is ich you'll see the parasites drop off in a fresh water dip. My guess is velvet would not act the same way so someone else might want to chime in. If so, that could dictate your next moves.

 

[ReefKeeper666]

Guy at local fish store asked me if I saw labored breathing and fish swimming towards powerhead. I said yes. He said based on that and how we couldn’t count individual spots it’s most likely velvet. I came back home and have now lost another fish, the Royal gramma and fairy wrasse is laying on bottom.

 

[weamdog]

sorry to hear this. might be hard for you to pick up and try a third time because that's some pretty bad luck. If you do decide to start again, avoid your LFS like the plague, at least until they clean and restart their system.

 

[Hugh Mann]

By how quickly your fish are dying, and the listed symptoms, it actually sounds more like velvet than ich. Which is both good and bad. Bad in that Velvet kills extremely fast, hours, days at best, so you have to act quickly. Velvet cannot be managed, it can only be cured or it will kill all your fish.

Good news is its relatively easy to treat, and most of the meds that work for ich also work on velvet. Freshwater dips will buy you time to act. Again, separate fish from everything else, and does whatever medication you desire to use, using Freshwater Dips periodically if you have to ramp up dosages. Treat as long as required by the medication, and beware of secondary infections. The other good news is the fallow period for Velvet is only six weeks, not the 76 days of ich.

 

[ReefKeeper666]

So this

By how quickly your fish are dying, and the listed symptoms, it actually sounds more like velvet than ich. Which is both good and bad. Bad in that Velvet kills extremely fast, hours, days at best, so you have to act quickly. Velvet cannot be managed, it can only be cured or it will kill all your fish.

Good news is its relatively easy to treat, and most of the meds that work for ich also work on velvet. Freshwater dips will buy you time to act. Again, separate fish from everything else, and does whatever medication you desire to use, using Freshwater Dips periodically if you have to ramp up dosages. Treat as long as required by the medication, and beware of secondary infections. The other good news is the fallow period for Velvet is only six weeks, not the 76 days of ich.

This is now exactly what I’m working on. Setting up a QT for the remaking fish. Treating them. And just waiting out the 45 days.