2nd opinion wanted on nuisance growth (as viewed under magnification)

[Justin Ostafew]

Hello everyone. I'm working to identify some stringy brown junk in the tank, looks a lot like this: https://www.reef2reef.com/attachments/substrate-jpg.298435/ After some incoclusive results googling references at the macro level I decided to get serious and borrow a friend's (old) microscope for a closer look.

Please have a look at the magnified picture below and let me know what you think. The closest thing I could find are diatoms, though I didn't really find a good match. Actually it was more a process of elimination as I think they look least like dinos and cyano, therefore I believe them to be diatoms. Thanks for viewing

 

[sfin52]

@mcarroll @taricha what do you think these guys are.

 

[taricha]

Hard to tell without knowing the scale or seeing the movement. Any chance of a video?
The cells look kinda teardrop / sesame seed shape like they could be ostreopsis dinoflagellates (surrounded by some other tiny mass of cells).

If you can't post video of your own, check video in the link. see if it matches movement.

 

[sfin52]

That’s what I thought but your the expert.

 

[Justin Ostafew]

Hard to tell without knowing the scale or seeing the movement. Any chance of a video?
The cells look kinda teardrop / sesame seed shape like they could be ostreopsis dinoflagellates (surrounded by some other tiny mass of cells).

If you can't post video of your own, check video in the link. see if it matches movement.

At the time of this photo the sample was about 15-20min removed from the tank and no noticeable movement. I'm not 100% sure of the scale but if I'm reading the markers on the bottom lens and eyepiece correctly we should be around 200x magnification in that photo.

A note on the movement; I took my sample and squished it between two glass slides for observation. I assumed that at this scale there would still be a think film of water between the slides and I would not actually be squishing the cells of the organism. Perhaps I should have just put them on a single slide, then perhaps I would have noticed movement?

 

[sfin52]

Welcome to reef2reef. A great place for advice and help.

 

[taricha]

The squishing could explain some things. Try just a tiny drop uncovered.

 

[Justin Ostafew]

Welcome to reef2reef. A great place for advice and help.

Thanks, I'm new here (as you can tell) but happy to be here.

This evening I will collect another sample and try to view it quickly after collection on a single side to see if there's any movement.

 

[Justin Ostafew]

I got some live ones this time! Unfortunatly it looks like you're right taricha, it seems that I've been blessed with a 2nd variety of dinos in the 5 yrs or so that I've been reefing..... I see the tell-tale circular movement as if the critters are tethered indicating the Ostreopsis that you suggested. This has been a very interesting process checking these buggers out under the microscope, but I was really hoping I wasn't dealing with Dinos again.

Here are a couple (poor) videos showing the movement. Please note that the link will initiate a file download (does not stream playback in the browser).
https://grandexposures.sharepoint.c...wnrVD1XGSI&e=e20fa08b3ab447ed8fc2d05bc5723596
https://grandexposures.sharepoint.c...3E07g8kiqM&e=1e67db0438164cc2953b5958f3c7d9bc

 

[sfin52]

Hello my name is Stefan and I have Dino...........

And I beat them without nuking or restarting my tank.

 

[sfin52]

I don't know what percentage of folks are having luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the main Dino thread.

Just to refresh folks on the natural alternative...

• Dino's generally gain a competitive edge against their competitors AND their predators in a nutrient-starved environment.
• Phosphate Control
  • DO NOT let your phosphates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation
• Nitrate Control
  • Do not let your nitrates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Putting the N in dinoflagellates
  • See: A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)
• Starvation should be avoided. Remember that a wide variety of micoorganisms depend on dissolved N and P...and so do corals and healthy algae.
• Confirming the ID of your dinoflagellate is important if possible.
  • To begin with, make sure you have Dinos
  • Use @taricha's dino confirmation guide on posts #986-987.
• Once you know it's dino's you should ideally figure out what type(s) your tank is hosting.
  • Specifically for Ostreopsis, consider skipping ahead to post #86 and #905 as the information is still developing.
  • Compare your dino's with photos where @taricha's has already made ID's:
    (Click the link. Then click the SEARCH button at the bottom of the search page.)
    • ostreopsis
    • prorocentrum
    • amphidinium
    • coolia
    • (other searches coming)
• After you get started, What is the End Game?

• Disturbances we cause in our tanks are what allow microbial/algal populations to shift and ugly/harmful blooms to happen.
  • See: Evidence for the Existence of Three Primary Strategies in Plants and Its Relevance to Ecological and Evolutionary Theory

• Take measures to assure that your feeding system is very consistent. An auto-feeder is an overlooked tool on most tanks. Look at Eheim's feeders...set them on low with high quality flake food. Just don't let them run your whole feeding program as flake isn't great food.

• Find out what inconsistencies you can eliminate with your husbandry to prevent more unneeded disturbances and the resulting microbial/algal changes. This could be changes to lighting or water chemistry – make them as consistent as you can.

• E.g. If you're adding new livestock all the time, stop it. If you have a color-tunable light fixture, stop re-tuning the colors. If you don't have an ATO keeping your salinity stable, get one. If you're still managing your dosing by hand, get an $80 4-head doser. Etc.

If you provide the stability, then your dino's competitors will start competing with them and their predators will start eating them!!

One thing that seems to help things progress is to stop scraping down the algae off your glass....once the dino's start giving up space that is. Mechanical removal is a legit short-term strategy and might help give competitors a leg up too.


2¢

Other interesting more-or-less related links on my blog:

• Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication
• Viruses manipulate the marine environment
• Extracoelenteric zooplankton feeding is a key mechanism of nutrient acquisition for the scleractinian coral Galaxea fascicularis
• Fish foraging behavior changes plankton-nutrient relations in laboratory microcosms

(Also cross-posted in the main Dino thread!)

This thread has a ton of info. This is how I beat them.

 

[taricha]

@Justin Ostafew you're in luck! Ostreopsis are pretty reliable about responding to the treatments outlined in the thread.

 

[Justin Ostafew]

@Justin Ostafew you're in luck! Ostreopsis are pretty reliable about responding to the treatments outlined in the thread.

Well that's good news, thanks very much for the shove in the right direction. I'll get to reading about treatment methods. Wish me luck!

 

[Justin Ostafew]

Hey guys, I appreciate you taking the time to somewhat answer my questions here rather than just pointing me straight to the massive existing Dino threads. I think I've got my plan of action:

• Begin dosing P and N with the goal of feeding other beneficial organisms that will outcompete the dinos
• Along the way, run the filter sock and blow the dinos off of things daily. Clean filter sock regularly. Run carbon to catch any toxins coming off of dying dinos.
  
• Maintain P around 0.1ppm and N around 5-10ppm levels and wait patiently for 2-3wks to begin seeing results

It looks like Seachem Flourish is a good source for P, but I'm having a hard time finding a recent source for N in Canada. Do we have any experience with Seachem Flourish Nitrogen? Do you have another suggestion? Thank you

 

[sfin52]

You can't find spectracide stump remover granulars?

 

[sfin52]

Once you get your p and n numbers to proper levels you may need to add biodiversity back into the tank.

 

[Justin Ostafew]

You can't find spectracide stump remover granulars?

No, the KNO4 products here were banned a while back. From what I've been reading is even very difficult to get in the hydroponics world. Freshwater planted tank guys are having the same problem. I'm thinking about going across the border to hit a Home Depot for a bottle of Spectricide Stump Remover, but I haven't been able to confirm whether or not I'm allowed to bring it into the country. I can't buy it here but that doesn't necessarily mean I can't bring it in....

As for the biodiversity, yes you're most certainly correct. Thanks for the added tip.

 

[taricha]

No, the KNO4 products here were banned a while back. From what I've been reading is even very difficult to get in the hydroponics world. Freshwater planted tank guys are having the same problem. I'm thinking about going across the border to hit a Home Depot for a bottle of Spectricide Stump Remover, but I haven't been able to confirm whether or not I'm allowed to bring it into the country. I can't buy it here but that doesn't necessarily mean I can't bring it in....

As for the biodiversity, yes you're most certainly correct. Thanks for the added tip.

You can find flourish N or flourish P or iron etc. They do them separately. I'd look for aquatic plant fertilizers.
If desperate you can look at miracle grow products, and find some that are higher N/P ratio.
Can also just order sodium nitrate.

You didn't mention UV, but ostreopsis are very susceptible, direct cell killing goes hand in hand with elevating nutrients. Pushes dinos out, while letting other stuff replace it. Aim for 1watt UV per 2 gallons.

 

[Justin Ostafew]

Ok, very good. I wasn't sure if it had to be specifically KNO3 (Spectracide / saltpeter) or if any Nitrogen type fertilizer type product for aquaria would do the job.

Thank you for the note about the UV, I didn't come across that as a good tool for ostreopsis. Actually most of the posts I read mentioned that UV was pointless for Dinos, though it must really depends on the species in question.

Given that Dinos are such a problem, and there's so much variety in what works and what doesn't depending on the species, and especially since it's a bit of an evolving subject at the moment I would love to see an extension to the sticky you (taricha) did on determining whether or not you're dealing with Dinos, which then goes into the better know species like ostreopsis and a brief summary of what seems to be a developing consensus on methods of dealing with them. That being said I know that your time is valuable and I sincerely thank you for the time that you've shared with me so far, so I wouldn't expect you to put that together. But perhaps sharing a few notes with the moderators and having them put something together based on what we know now that can later be touched up by very knowledgeable people like yourself as things continue to evolve, I think would be extremely helpful.

Thanks again

 

[Justin Ostafew]

I've been making changes for this particular issue and thinking about my reefing years past, and after learning a few things in the last few months I'm just now feeling like the causes for all of my previous difficulties are coming into focus. I just had to share as I feel a lot of it is in thanks to the information I've been given here.

Firstly, this is probably common knowledge for most reefers and should have been part of my rookie education, but for a long time I've struggled with keeping my Alk where I want it. Either it continually drops (assumed biological processes in the tank other than calcification were doing it because I've had minimal coral in the tank) or I dose regularly and then all of a sudden it's through the roof. This has happened a couple times and in the process knocked out a bunch of livestock. As it turns out, all that was due to a crappy Mag test kit and my reluctance to take regular measurements due to said crappy test kit. A Salifert kit quickly and repeatably showed me that my Mag was very low. I brought that up to where it should be and all of a sudden my Alk and Calc are behaving as I'd expect them to. They were both out of whack, but now that I've adjusted they're nice and stable. This kinda segues into my current issue with Dinos, specifically with system stability.

Ever since about 6 months after I began reefing I've pretty much always dealt with some sort of brown junk in the tank. One time I had full on nasty Dinos (different species that I'm dealing with now) which I clobbered with a 10 day blackout, but there's always been some Cyano, or Diatoms, or probably very often Dinos making my tank ugly. Some times worse than others, but ever present. Combine that with a bit of algae and my tank has always looked sad. Through this process, and the helpful people here I've been learning that obtaining zero nitrates and zero phosphates should not be the goal, and can lead to the exact issues I've been having. I've always had a light bioload in this tank, fed sparingly, skimmed wet, tried (unsuccessfully) to grow Chaeto in the sump, run Phoz Down and GFO at times, always attempting to destroy any traces of phosphates in an attempt to have a clean looking tank. I even recently built a pretty serious algae turf scrubber to try to out-compete whatever junk was growing in the tank. That never produced much, because as I've learned, there's nothing to feed the desired algae growth. Ever since the initial cycle I've never ready any detectable Nitrates in the system. Yet my tank always looked like butt.

On to the current prevalent Dino problem, and a revelation that nitrate and/or phosphate at zero are not a healthy environment for things that I want in the tank, and in fact create an environment for Cyano, Diatoms, Dinos to proliferate due to lack of other competition. Over the past week or so I've got a new Salifert Nitrate test kit (old one was expired), have been checking Phosphorus levels daily with my Hannah low range colorimeter, have begun dosing N and P, and picked up a UV sterilizer (hurray for Craigslist) and brought it online last night. I've also taken the algae turf reactor offline and started feeding a little heavier. Last night was the first reading with the new NO3 kit and I think was the first time I've ever had a positive reading for Nitrate in the system measuring around 30ppm. Dosing N has stopped until I see what trend that's taking. I'm up to double the calculated dosage of P each day that should get me to my desired level but so far there's still nothing showing on the Hanna meter... Well I've gotten readings between 0 and 4 ppb, but I'll consider that to be zero.

Long story short, this is all information that is scattered around this site and others, and for some is old news, but for me it feels like the pieces are all falling into place. Makes me feel good having a better understanding of why my tank has been doing what it's been doing and I'm very much looking forward to just having the usual green algae to deal with by a herbivorous cleanup crew. It's also been very satisfying scoping those Dinos and getting a positive ID. That's it for now, I will update when I'm able to get my Phosphate up to my target value.