38 days coppersafe 2.5ppm - still seeing ich

[Cheeriup]

Hi, I have a new burrfish that's been in treatment for ich for 38 days now. We are maintaining 2.5ppm copper with Coppersafe, and otherwise keeping the tank healthy. We finished prazipro treatment some time ago, and have not treated for anything else. The fish is acting normal and eating very well, but I'm still seeing significant onset of ich spots for a handful of days, every several days, with no noticeable change throughout the duration of treatment.

Can someone help me figure out what is going on? Should I maintain these levels or maybe begin some other treatment? I've never heard of ich not responding for this long.

Parameters:
10 gal QT
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 4ppm
PH: 7.9
Salinity: 1.024

No tankmates

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi, I have a new burrfish that's been in treatment for ich for 38 days now. We are maintaining 2.5ppm copper with Coppersafe, and otherwise keeping the tank healthy. We finished prazipro treatment some time ago, and have not treated for anything else. The fish is acting normal and eating very well, but I'm still seeing significant onset of ich spots for a handful of days, every several days, with no noticeable change throughout the duration of treatment.

Can someone help me figure out what is going on? Should I maintain these levels or maybe begin some other treatment? I've never heard of ich not responding for this long.

Parameters:
10 gal QT
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 4ppm
PH: 7.9
Salinity: 1.024

No tankmates

What copper test kit are you using and can you post pics under white lighting ?

 

[gbroadbridge]

Is this a dedicated quarantine tank?

How are you testing copper concentration?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi, I have a new burrfish that's been in treatment for ich for 38 days now. We are maintaining 2.5ppm copper with Coppersafe, and otherwise keeping the tank healthy. We finished prazipro treatment some time ago, and have not treated for anything else. The fish is acting normal and eating very well, but I'm still seeing significant onset of ich spots for a handful of days, every several days, with no noticeable change throughout the duration of treatment.

Can someone help me figure out what is going on? Should I maintain these levels or maybe begin some other treatment? I've never heard of ich not responding for this long.

Parameters:
10 gal QT
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 4ppm
PH: 7.9
Salinity: 1.024

No tankmates

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

+1 on what copper test kit are you using?
Can you post pics and a short video under white light?

Burrfish carry a number of diseases, some are not that well known. It might not be ich.

Jay

 

[Cheeriup]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

+1 on what copper test kit are you using?
Can you post pics and a short video under white light?

Burrfish carry a number of diseases, some are not that well known. It might not be ich.

Jay

What copper test kit are you using and can you post pics under white lighting ?

Is this a dedicated quarantine tank?

How are you testing copper concentration?

I'm using a Hanna checker for copper, and yes this is a dedicated quarantine tank.

Photos and video below - the light spooked him, so I wasn't able to get great quality.

I do have a filter and powerhead running with lots of surface agitation (turned them off for photos), but while taking photos I noticed him going to the surface for air a couple of times. Also, he tried really hard to eat last night but spat everything out multiple times, seemed to be painful, not sure if he got anything down. He has a lot more of these spots right now than I've seen before - including on the eyes, which wasn't present before, if that makes a difference.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm using a Hanna checker for copper, and yes this is a dedicated quarantine tank.

Photos and video below - the light spooked him, so I wasn't able to get great quality.

I do have a filter and powerhead running with lots of surface agitation (turned them off for photos), but while taking photos I noticed him going to the surface for air a couple of times. Also, he tried really hard to eat last night but spat everything out multiple times, seemed to be painful, not sure if he got anything down. He has a lot more of these spots right now than I've seen before - including on the eyes, which wasn't present before, if that makes a difference.

Wow - that sure looks like ich. The spots aren’t really distinct, but ich tends to look that way during long term infections.
What about trying a 5 minute FW dip to see if that helps?
Jay

 

[Cheeriup]

Wow - that sure looks like ich. The spots aren’t really distinct, but ich tends to look that way during long term infections.
What about trying a 5 minute FW dip to see if that helps?
Jay

Yeah I can definitely try that. Would you suggest maintaining the same copper levels, or maybe adding something else?

 

[gbroadbridge]

Sound

I'm using a Hanna checker for copper, and yes this is a dedicated quarantine tank.

Photos and video below - the light spooked him, so I wasn't able to get great quality.

I do have a filter and powerhead running with lots of surface agitation (turned them off for photos), but while taking photos I noticed him going to the surface for air a couple of times. Also, he tried really hard to eat last night but spat everything out multiple times, seemed to be painful, not sure if he got anything down. He has a lot more of these spots right now than I've seen before - including on the eyes, which wasn't present before, if that makes a difference.

Strange. It looks like Ich.

I'd keep the copper at the current level, definitely would not increase.

I would not add another med while copper is running,

 

[Gatorpa]

Sound

Strange. It looks like Ich.

I'd keep the copper at the current level, definitely would not increase.

I would not add another med while copper is running,

Wow - that sure looks like ich. The spots aren’t really distinct, but ich tends to look that way during long term infections.
What about trying a 5 minute FW dip to see if that helps?
Jay

What about using H2O2?

Aleo you can raise the temp and lower the salinity(SLOWLY)

 

[gbroadbridge]

What about using H2O2?

Aleo you can raise the temp and lower the salinity(SLOWLY)

I really wouldn't recommend Hydrogen Peroxide.

It is an aggressive oxidiser that will harm the fish as well as the parasite.

Hypo salinity is an option, but I think you would need to remove the copper first.

Honestly, if copper is not working, I don't think lower salinity will either - but I'm not a vet.

 

[Gatorpa]

I really wouldn't recommend Hydrogen Peroxide.

It is an aggressive oxidiser that will harm the fish as well as the parasite.

Hypo salinity is an option, but I think you would need to remove the copper first.

Honestly, if copper is not working, I don't think lower salinity will either - but I'm not a vet.

Many people dose their tanks daily with 3% H2O2, some even use it as a coral dip.

There are literally dozens of threads here about it.

Most LFS run hyposalinity and copper at the same time so I see no reason they can’t be done together in the fish only system.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Many people dose their tanks daily with 3% H2O2, some even use it as a coral dip.

There are literally dozens of threads here about it.

Most LFS run hyposalinity and copper at the same time so I see no reason they can’t be done together in the fish only system.

Many people also drink Alcohol and smoke cigarettes despite the fact that both are poisons and harmful to health.

As most here are not professional marine biologists I think you will see the parallel.

H2O2 has no place in a marine aquarium unless administered by a vet, and you will not find a single vet who would do so.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Many people dose their tanks daily with 3% H2O2, some even use it as a coral dip.

There are literally dozens of threads here about it.

Most LFS run hyposalinity and copper at the same time so I see no reason they can’t be done together in the fish only system.

Should mention, I do use a 20% saltwater/3% H202 mix in a jug to kill algae off coral frags.

I rinse well afterwards.

Never wouId I consider dumping that water into my tank.
It is a poison.

I'd rather use Algaefix or Vibrant which are at least identified on a poison schedule.

 

[52728299]

Should mention, I do use a 20% saltwater/3% H202 mix in a jug to kill algae off coral frags.

I rinse well afterwards.

Never wouId I consider dumping that water into my tank.
It is a poison.

I'd rather use Algaefix or Vibrant which are at least identified on a poison schedule.

I'm not looking to argue just responding for the sake of learning and conversation but in that case isn't copper also a poison? Formalin? I'm sure there's lots used in yhe hobby that could be considered a poison why is h2o2 seen as so much worse? I'm legit curious

 

[gbroadbridge]

I'm not looking to argue just responding for the sake of learning and conversation but in that case isn't copper also a poison? Formalin? I'm sure there's lots used in yhe hobby that could be considered a poison why is h2o2 seen as so much worse? I'm legit curious

Folks don't normally dump copper or formalin into a display tank.

Into a controlled QT of hospital tank, sure.

If you get cancer they will pump you full of lots of crazy stuff too, but only in a hospital setting.

 

[Gatorpa]

Many people also drink Alcohol and smoke cigarettes despite the fact that both are poisons and harmful to health.

As most here are not professional marine biologists I think you will see the parallel.

H2O2 has no place in a marine aquarium unless administered by a vet, and you will not find a single vet who would do so.

OH boy, copper is also deadly in the wrong amounts as are numerous other chemicals that are used to treat marine infections.
H2O2 is no different.

So are most all meds that vets use to treat and prevent any number of infections.
Just for the record I’m not advocating dumping 500ml of 30% H2O2 in a reef tank.

Decades ago no marine “expert” would advocate dumping vodka or stump remover (toxins and deadly) into you reef tank system, now there numerous experts who not only do it but give detailed directions how to do so….

If there is almost anything about reef in that is true is that often there is no 100% way to handle any situation..

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Peroxide is very tricky to use. The amount of oxidant in the water is dependent on the level of organics, and that changes as you add peroxide. So - a dose that works early on me be an overdose later on. You really need a test kit to monitor the free peroxide levels. It also hasn't been tested against ich, just velvet.

Here is a preliminary study and I did:

Hydrogen Peroxide Bench-testing

Bench testing of the effects of hydrogen peroxide in aquariums.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[gbroadbridge]

Peroxide is very tricky to use. The amount of oxidant in the water is dependent on the level of organics, and that changes as you add peroxide. So - a dose that works early on me be an overdose later on. You really need a test kit to monitor the free peroxide levels. It also hasn't been tested against ich, just velvet.

Here is a preliminary study and I did:

Hydrogen Peroxide Bench-testing

Bench testing of the effects of hydrogen peroxide in aquariums.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Thank you for posting this.

I see too many posts where hydrogen peroxide dosing is encouraged.

It seems, based on the results above, that 3% is unlikely to really cause harm, but is also unlikely to have any measurable benefit.

 

[Gatorpa]

Loo

Peroxide is very tricky to use. The amount of oxidant in the water is dependent on the level of organics, and that changes as you add peroxide. So - a dose that works early on me be an overdose later on. You really need a test kit to monitor the free peroxide levels. It also hasn't been tested against ich, just velvet.

Here is a preliminary study and I did:

Hydrogen Peroxide Bench-testing

Bench testing of the effects of hydrogen peroxide in aquariums.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

looks to be a good read, thanks for the info