380nm led missing - thoughts? Atlantik iCon vs V4

[servus]

I was looking at the new iCon for a build, I see the 380 nm LEDs are missing compared to the V4.
By comparing the spectrum of the ReefLED, Photo and V4, the 380nm was what attracted me in the V4 light - it was the only one with LEDs below 410-420 nm.
I have 2 ReefLeds on my current tank, they work great! The thing is that I bought a UV light from Amazon, 380nm, really makes the corals pop!!!

What's your experience? The pop at 380 nm seems amazing! I looked at a chart with coral pigments and emissivity, and it seems there are quite a few that emit visual wavelengths when excited by UV light in the 380nm range.
Thoughts?

 

[jda]

You cannot see 380nm, unless you are a Marvel character. It is probably that some pigment in a coral gathered in 380nm, used some of the energy and spit it back out in the violet range just over 400nm. It also could be that a coral developed a sunscreen pigment for the UV that looks good.

True UV LEDs are short lived and they kill the lenses. Maybe that is why they took them out.

I do agree that true UV does make corals look nice, which is one reason that I keep my halides, but it is very hard for LEDs since the diodes are not easy. They almost need to be made to swap out with some sockets, unless they have been made to be more reliable lately.

 

[servus]

Of course you can't see 380, you can see pigment emissivity when exposed to 380 nm. Here's the article:
https://reefs.com/magazine/coral-coloration-part-3-pigments-responsible-for/

 

[jda]

If you like the way those few diodes look, you might really love some metal halide bulbs.

 

[oreo54]

You cannot see 380nm, unless you are a Marvel character. It is probably that some pigment in a coral gathered in 380nm, used some of the energy and spit it back out in the violet range just over 400nm. It also could be that a coral developed a sunscreen pigment for the UV that looks good.

True UV LEDs are short lived and they kill the lenses. Maybe that is why they took them out.

I do agree that true UV does make corals look nice, which is one reason that I keep my halides, but it is very hard for LEDs since the diodes are not easy. They almost need to be made to swap out with some sockets, unless they have been made to be more reliable lately.

Need glass lenses on both the diode and secondary optics if one chooses to use them. There are UV transmitting resins/plastics though.
Glass would just be easier.

As to lifespan of diodes..

For current commercial HP UV-A LED technology, the lifetime improves with lower Tj values,
and this is possible with the cycled working mode and good natural or forced dissipating systems.
The current UV-A LED lifetime is comparable to or better than that of UV-A lamps when good thermal
management is used. In cycled working mode, the net real working lifetime is over 10,000 h for B50L70;
there was 50% population failure below 70% of the original optical power

file:///C:/Users/Jeff2/AppData/Local/Temp/crystals-10-01083-1.pdf

Putting them on their own channel and using judiciously could improve their lifespan.
There really are no "hurdles" that haven't been partially addressed.
Just need some creativity really,..

10,000hrs at 2 hrs /day..is a long time. 13.7 years.

This is about UV-A though.. B, C, ?? Why use them?

Viosys estimates..

http://www.seoulviosys.com/common/down/201117_Catalogue.pdf

 

[servus]

LEDs should be fine in terms of lifespan, if the 380s will be an issue, I will get a couple of them and turn them on somehow, separately.

 

[JNalley]

I was looking at the new iCon for a build, I see the 380 nm LEDs are missing compared to the V4.
By comparing the spectrum of the ReefLED, Photo and V4, the 380nm was what attracted me in the V4 light - it was the only one with LEDs below 410-420 nm.
I have 2 ReefLeds on my current tank, they work great! The thing is that I bought a UV light from Amazon, 380nm, really makes the corals pop!!!

What's your experience? The pop at 380 nm seems amazing! I looked at a chart with coral pigments and emissivity, and it seems there are quite a few that emit visual wavelengths when excited by UV light in the 380nm range.
Thoughts?

There are 2 lights I know of that go down into the UV spectrum. The GHL Mitras, and the Geisemann lights.

Edit: GHL Mitras has 380 or 385nm Diodes and the Geisemann Future S has 390nm diodes

 

[Catskiller]

Orphek has light bars in the 390-440nm range. I plan on using one to supplement my T-5 setup.

 

[servus]

Orphek has light bars in the 390-440nm range. I plan on using one to supplement my T-5 setup.

I was looking forward to adding one or two of those, if needed. I like, though, to have dimming and scheduling capabilities on my lights, gonna have to compromise if I add a lightbar... or hack it somehow

 

[JNalley]

I was looking forward to adding one or two of those, if needed. I like, though, to have dimming and scheduling capabilities on my lights, gonna have to compromise if I add a lightbar... or hack it somehow

GHL (Schedulable) and Giesemann (Schedulable) both have diodes in the range you're looking for. I'm sure there are others, Giesemann is crazy though with the ability to have 4820 scheduling points in a 24 hour period...

Futura S - Giesemann Aquaristic

High-End Aquarium LED Beleuchtung, Aquarium Hybrid Beleuchtung und premium Aquarien. Handgefertigt und made in Germany

www.giesemann.de

 

[JNalley]

I guess it's 450 points per color, per module. Which is still a ton when each module contains 8 colors, and their smallest light has 2 modules, largest has 6... lol

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

I've been a UV preacher for over a decade. I've yet to see a fixture with a significant number of UV LEDs that will be enough to make a difference.

There is one caveat to UV LEDs. It's very easy to overwhelm your corals by adjusting those too high. Many people don't understand that the human eye can't see that range clearly. So they think they are dim and adjust them higher, bad mistake.

 

[JNalley]

I've been a UV preacher for over a decade. I've yet to see a fixture with a significant number of UV LEDs that will be enough to make a difference.

There is one caveat to UV LEDs. It's very easy to overwhelm your corals by adjusting those too high. Many people don't understand that the human eye can't see that range clearly. So they think they are dim and adjust them higher, bad mistake.

I'm confused by your post. On the one hand, you're saying "There aren't enough LEDs in that range", which I take to mean that it's not a high enough output, but on the other hand you're saying "don't run them too bright or you'll fry them". Can you elaborate so I understand? Do 4 running at 25% on the same puck put out more light as 1 running at 100%?

 

[oreo54]

Fun with numbers...

LED Lighting Beam Angle Calculator

A simple calculator that determines spot size by a light's beam angle

store.marinebeam.com

1200mW radiant power @ 120 degrees
Viosys CUN86A1B diode
1,200,000 micro watts
8" = 20.32cm = 70.39cm diameter
35.2 radius
3892 sq centimeters area of light FWHM
1,200,000/3892
Soo 308 microwatts per centimeter at the water surface if lamp is 8" up.

From this:

Playing With Poison – Ultraviolet Radiation

This article documents the results of an experiment designed to examine the effects of artificially-produced UVR on symbiotic zooxanthellae. We'll also examine inexpensive ways to test your system and, if necessary, corrective measures one can take.

reefs.com

It seem it would be hard to exceed what some Metal halides beam into a tank IF I calculated that right and considering normal light designs. Well should have done it for 90 degrees or less and there is all sorts of variables like "beaming" and wave "beaming" and losses like plastic/glass absorption and water quality below and more importantly not driving them to max radiant output. That is a big one since you need to squeeze lifespan out of them.
90 degree lenses.

radius 20.3 @ 8"
1294 area
927 microwatts/cm... so same as some of the measured Metal halides (1000 is the lowest), way less than a few.

Personally I was surprised by the output..but seems right.

Current State of UV LED Technology

Over the last decade, the ultraviolet (UV) LED market has grown substantially. Since 2008, there has been more than a fivefold increase in the number of companies manufacturing UV LEDs. Last year, we reviewed the current state of UV LED technology; a lot

www.koppglass.com

The most commercially viable UV LEDs are those that emit at UVA wavelengths. There are more than 30 UVA LEDs available, including models from companies such as SETi and Epigap LED. Their peak wavelengths range from 320 nm to 400 nm, with LEDs available at every 5 nm increment. However, the majority of available LEDs are centered around 360 to 380 nm. UVA LEDs have the highest efficiencies, with some approaching the efficiency of blue LEDs. UVA LEDs also have the largest available radiant flux or output power, ranging from 1 mW to 4000 mW, depending on the driving current.

 

[jda]

We can talk theory and what-can-be all day, the reality of what is out there and what will likely be out there in the next few years just it what it is. If you want a good amount IR and UV, then you need get a Metal Halide. If you want a bit of IR and UV, then some T5 supplements can do it with True Actinic and 6500k bulbs. I threw IR in here too since I think that it matters just as much. Or, you can build your own LED. The commercially made ones seem to add and remove the true UV LEDs (not just say 390 as spillover from a 410nm diode, or something) and are not reliable.

I had hope that Gen 5 Radion would have some UV, but they decided against it for cost and longevity - kills their argument of buy and forget if you have to be replacing diodes and lenses and stuff (seems too much like replacing bulbs). I though that it would be a way to win back a lot of market share with something actually different since they have lost so much to less expensive panels that seem to work about the same in aggregate. Back when we could still go to MACNA, they had no interest in IR since then their bogus argument over heat would be gone, even though they agreed that high red was a good idea. I doubt any of this is going to happen in the next decade, and I don't care if it can, just if it does.

I am always just talking about 350-400nm when I say UV, but more towards 400. UVB and UVC don't play enough of a role to worry about for me.

 

[oreo54]

How much IR does a t5 have?
Or UV for that matter.

Now factor in attenuation.

Transmitted at a water depth of 15.5″ are 34% and 29% UV-A and UV-B, respectively.

UVR is probably not a concern with most fluorescent lamps (unless they are specifically made to generate UVR). Based on experience I would check any metal halide lamp, any mercury vapor lamp, and Power Compact or VHO fluorescent lamps exceeding combined wattages of ~400.

Are t5 only tanks successful?
Point is t5 only or led only are pretty spectrally equivalent if designed as such.
Leaves mh as an outlier here

The "germacidal effect" of UV is an interesting and unproven concept but needs investigating.
The effect on solid surfaces (including tissue and skeletons) in the aquarium specifically

I question any " direct" benefit of UV to corals other than added par or that benefits exceed "risks".

Just needs real proof though. Not saying it is not possible.

Same with IR greater than like 800nm.

Thanks to the nature of leds this can now be more easily studied. I' ll await more concrete evidence.

 

[oreo54]

Fun with numbers...

LED Lighting Beam Angle Calculator

A simple calculator that determines spot size by a light's beam angle

store.marinebeam.com

1200mW radiant power @ 120 degrees
Viosys CUN86A1B diode
1,200,000 micro watts
8" = 20.32cm = 70.39cm diameter
35.2 radius
3892 sq centimeters area of light FWHM
1,200,000/3892
Soo 308 microwatts per centimeter at the water surface if lamp is 8" up.

From this:

Playing With Poison – Ultraviolet Radiation

This article documents the results of an experiment designed to examine the effects of artificially-produced UVR on symbiotic zooxanthellae. We'll also examine inexpensive ways to test your system and, if necessary, corrective measures one can take.

reefs.com

It seem it would be hard to exceed what some Metal halides beam into a tank IF I calculated that right and considering normal light designs. Well should have done it for 90 degrees or less and there is all sorts of variables like "beaming" and wave "beaming" and losses like plastic/glass absorption and water quality below and more importantly not driving them to max radiant output. That is a big one since you need to squeeze lifespan out of them.
90 degree lenses.

radius 20.3 @ 8"
1294 area
927 microwatts/cm... so same as some of the measured Metal halides (1000 is the lowest), way less than a few.

Personally I was surprised by the output..but seems right.

Current State of UV LED Technology

Over the last decade, the ultraviolet (UV) LED market has grown substantially. Since 2008, there has been more than a fivefold increase in the number of companies manufacturing UV LEDs. Last year, we reviewed the current state of UV LED technology; a lot

www.koppglass.com

cm squared..

 

[jda]

This is where having some actual experience instead of just looking at charts might help you out. The T5 are way closer to the MH and the LEDs are the outliers if you saw them in action for any amount of time.

I always thought that UVB and C were more germicidal in what ever the 250nm range is... and at really close range. The UV that is in a mercury light that does not get filtered and enters the tank is obviously beneficial although I wish that we knew more about why too.

 

[oreo54]

What you " experience" is a product of the physics.
Take out of this what you want..
I've "pushed" the "need" 490-510nm for years in fw lights. Se no difference in sw.
Japanese push the use of amber which is also normally lacking in LED array.

 

[Brymac1]

What you " experience" is a product of the physics.
Take out of this what you want..
I've "pushed" the "need" 490-510nm for years in fw lights. Se no difference in sw.
Japanese push the use of amber which is also normally lacking in LED array.

I find it interesting that many of the spectra of the T5 bulbs have small peaks in the far red region (above 700 nm). Which could in theory improve photosynthetic efficiency through the Emerson enhancement effect.