3rd Time is a charm?!? (Kinda starting to lose hope)

[Dierks]

Hello Everyone,

Well as you guessed it, I am new to the SW side of keeping these amazing little critters and little chunks of the ocean! As much as I loved having FW fish I always hoped that I could be in a good of place in my life to even to have a small SW Tank. Well here I am, 15 Years after my first tank. I always have loved watching fish swim along my 55 Gallon Tank and hosted them with the same respects to my Dogs. So after getting in and out of the hobby several times over the last 15 years, this time I decided I was going to Dive into the SW world as I always Dreamed of!

Well......
This is where the story only begins for me, I have had a lot of bumps along the way. Not so much in regards to critters life, but instead to my ego and morel. I am a stubborn German but i have thought about throwing in the towel several times now. I am her to document my dumping of the 2nd tank and to witness the 3rd (and possibly the last attempt) cycle and attempt to keep my little slice of the ocean. Again, I truly care and want to make sure everything in the tank is thriving. So With all of that said, and probably more then anyone cares but either way is my back story and how I ended up with this post. Now for the info for the last two cycles.... And why I am starting over for the 3rd time.

NEW TANK!!!
Well here we were just a couple months ago when I decided I was going to start up my Nano Tank but set it up like a large tank with all the goodies. I really didn't spare much expense (Of course I was on a budget) because I wanted this to be a long term fixture in my office. I don't have a ton of space but enough to go vertical then more horizontal so I went out and snatched up a 29 Gallon for my display Tank and threw a custom made 10 Gallon Sump below it. After the install I was all set to get things started and at least get the Cycle started!!! Whoohoo, This will be so much fun!! (So I thought)

MY SETUP:

RO/DI System

APEX Controller

• Classic Black Style
• VDM
• Jebao Powerhead Controller
  
• DOS System
• 2 PH / 1 Temp Probe

Display Tank: 29 Gallon

• 1" Sand Bottom Bed
• Dry Rock Start
  • 30 lbs Craigslist Rock
    • I did a Muriatic Acid Bath after my "1st Cycle" on these as they were nasty and had sat in a dry tub for 8 months after just being pulled from the tank and being thrown into mine (I was new be nice)
• 2 Jebao PP-4's
  • Total flow in the tank is 800-1500 gph
  • Controlled by Apex for different flow rates
• 1.5" in Skimmer
• .75" Return

Sump: 10 Gallon

• 60% Flow to Algae Skrubber - Waterfall Style (9" x4" Screen)
• 40% Flow to Chamber One (Apex probes)
• Chamber 2 - Tunze DOC Skimmer 9001
• Return Pump - Lifegard Aquatics Quiet One Pro Series Aquarium Pump 1200 (221 gph Return)

"First Cycle": 4/4/18

• I started My first Cycle new to the hobby and simply not clear headed wrapped up in having a new tank and reading all about the fish and not about the cycle and how I needed to approach my new tank. I was going to have the coolest tank anyone ever seen I though!!! Well needless to say I simply cured my rocks more then anything. They simply sat in my heated tank with no lights on and everything running with the exception of my skimmer. the good part was everything was starting to get broke in at least.
• Well at that time, I though I started my cycle... I hadn't... I never put anything in my tank to get it going!! So soon I realized I have to actually do something to help this tank along, like maybe ghost feeding the tank, shrimp method, store bought items... ANYTHING, well duh I should probably do that!
• As you can see in my Document below I didn't start testing until 4/13 - So about 10 days after I started the tank up. I was getting equipment and Test kits as the days went past. I though I was going to have my tank cycled in a week so when i started testing I thought i was coming out of my cycle like a lot of new folks to the hobby from what I am reading.
  
• My whole history is laid out in front of you for my 2nd cycle so again I understand my mistakes to a limited knowledge as I can have after only being in the hobby for 2 months...
• I dumped the whole tank and decide it would be best to start fresh with everything dying withing 24 hours and the crabs almost instant death when they hit the tank... So on 4/23 I did that as I figured there had to be something seriously wrong here.

"Second Cycle":

• I decided I was going to do the shrimp method.. As you can see in my documents below I started the cycle up in a good fashion this time. Felt like after spending Hours of reading I had it now under control, had a good idea of what to expect and where I was heading this time!
• Everything went just to plan is what I thought, as you can see I had a "perfect Cycle" My Ammonia did what it should, Nitrates to the rescue and then of course my Nitrate cleaned it all up! Yes it was happening (An maybe still is...) But... again I put in a critter and instant death.
• Soooo.... Here we are a week ago, I have no idea what I am doing wrong. I got so desperate that I called the salt company I am using asking if there was any way I could have a bad bucket of salt that could cause instant death like that, as everything looked really good in my tests. So they asked me to sent in my water for Tests, YES there may be light at the end of the tunnel!! Some help!!
• I just got my water Tests back two days ago (While I was in CA, Just getting back today) and here is what they found!!
  • My Alk was at 14!!! I clearly have a bad test Kit, I will be getting a new one tomorrow/today, I also will be doing a large water change as well Today
  • My Calcium was at 800 - This is high but not the end of the world, I hope with the water change it will come down. I clearly need a new test kit for this as well.
  • My Magnesium was Low at 800 -
    • Again my test show other results, another new test kit?? How could all these be bad? Or how could I be this bad at testing for them? I read the directions EVERY TIME! I can't be that stupid....
  • Everything else they said looked good. They tested my Tap Water, RO/DI Water and Tank water and it was they could come up with.
• They also are sending me a new bucket of Salt, to keep me interested and going in the hobby is what they said. I really think that is extremely kind of them, and they said they tested their batch number to my batch with nothing being out of whack. They have told me I need to drain my whole tank, pitch my old bucket and use the new bucket to start over.
• 

Extreme exam of the setup of the tank:

• I did find an issue with my setup, I found a hose ring that I used to clamp the outside of the hose to the input of the return. It was over the sump and was rusted pretty bad! My thought was that maybe tiny droplets would pop up from chamber 3 and eventually build up and drop a droplet of water into the sump of super concentrated metal. I keep going back to this as I know crabs a re sensitive to this, but maybe not fish as much. Maybe if it was made of Nickle? it was this type of ring.
• 
  
• I did Treat for metals after the crabs died and before taking the test for the Salt Company... Clearly this could screw the results. yet when I told them they didn't think was it as they didn't think that could kill the fish that fast in my first Cycle.

Today:

• I came home today really bummed out and not motivated to start my tank over for the third time as every time I have to reset the tank up it's an entire day process. Even with a small tank like mine. i have a small RO/DI system and can only do it so fast. With my small of a setup it was hard to justify a large Gallon per hour system so mine is SLOW!!! Well needless to say I had a HUGE algae breakout while I was gone. See pics Below...
• 

So.... What are your thoughts? Do I truly need to dump my entire tank again and start over for the third time or what could we be missing? Clearly I need to do a large water change to get my number in order but i really don't need to cycle again right? How is it that even if it was a new tank that everything (1 Fish, 10 Crabs over three attempts from different stores) could die withing 24 hours? (I use the drip acclimation method over a 45 minute process floating the bag in the tank) I will test for all my numbers in the morning and think I have to go get new tests even though mine aren't expired. I just cant bring myself to do it at this point...

Clearly I have made a million mistakes but really need all your help on my next step. What should I do now? I am pretty much feel scared to move in any direction as I feel like it will be wrong...

Any and all help would be great from the info I provided... I am sure I missed a million details and can answer just about any question to help me solve my instant death issue and what I should be doing. I am so lost and getting very discouraged (mainly from my own misdoings and ignorance I assume) but really do want to succeed.

Pictures of what I came home (Above) to and now after I have mixed up my sand and cleaned the glass on the front. Water change and vacuum will happen in the morning.

• 

Much love, and I hope to wake up with a new enthusiasm for draining and recycling my tank again.

 

[NY_Caveman]

I would personally not use a light while cycling or maturing a new aquarium. Some do, but I feel it encourages algae. Snails and/or hermits could help with algae, but I understand if you are apprehensive to add anything yet. Algae is common when a tank is new. Best advice now is to go slow.

Nice detail by the way.

 

[Rispa]

Get some activated carbon and have that on hand to help pull chemicals out of the water. Check if your local water gas chloromine instead of chlorine. If so you may need a 6 stage RODI.

 

[Dierks]

activated carbon

I forgot to state that I have been running Activated Carbon the whole cycle.

Check if your local water gas chloromine instead of chlorine

Any way to test for it? Can I call and simply ask them if they use Chloromine?

 

[Retro Reefer]

My advice would be to slow down take your apex off line and stop chasing numbers at such a early stage it’s just over complicating your attempts for a successful reef, all you really need to properly cycle the tank is correctly mixed salt water, heater, circulation pump and your rock..

let your tank cycle lights off and covered so no ambient light gets in for one to two months before adding any livestock..

crabs can be sensitive and there is virtually nothing for them to eat in a fresh tank so wait before adding them just use snails for your initial CUC as needed..

the algae you have is normal for a new tank and the old rock you purchased even after cleaning is still probably full of organics and phosphates so you may have a little more than normal at first but that’s all part of the “ugly’s” you will get with a new tank..

 

[ihavecrabs]

Welcome to the start of the new tank uglies! That little green you see is the tank beginning to go through its many stages of diatoms and algae, building up life and trying to find a balance.

I think the advice above is accurate.. Go slow, no need to test (other than ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate) to ensure your cycle is progressing. Alkalinity/calcium only really need to be tested once you start thinking about corals.

An ammonia spike was like the cause of death for your new additions as the tank looks very very new. For the amount of algae you have in the tank currently, you might get away with adding a single banded trochus snail to keep it in check, but make sure you see no further ammonia.

Other than the above, what are you using to measure salinity? My recommendation is either a manual or digital refractometer. Hydrometers are not accurate.

 

[Rispa]

I forgot to state that I have been running Activated Carbon the whole cycle.



Any way to test for it? Can I call and simply ask them if they use Chloromine?

Yes, you can just call and check with your local Water Authority. That activated carbon can be used in case it looks like your tank inhabitants are taking a nosedive again.

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

Just for good measure, you may want to pick up some Polyfilter, and place it in a high flow area of your sump. It will change colors to indicate if there are any metals, etc in the water that are causing your problems. I would not empty the tank and start over, as you will be getting rid of the beneficial bacteria that have established themselves. Do a large water change to get your tank balances run the carbon, add some Polyfilter for a few days, and let it do it's thing. You've got a nice set up, so don't give up. A year from now you'll look back and laugh, and you'll be happy you didn't quit.

 

[Dierks]

Thanks for the toughs you guys... I really do appreciate them all...

My advice would be to slow down take your apex off line and stop chasing numbers

I just installed my Apex less then a week ago. So that is new, as far as chasing numbers, i didn't add anything until I thought my Cycle was complete, Always topping off with RO/DI water. As you can see, I am 1 month into my cycle and the only thing added was Baking Soda to get my Alk back up.

let your tank cycle lights off and covered so no ambient light gets in for one to two months before adding any livestock..

Well, That is where I am now, at this point I am one month into my cycle. (The lights on/off debate could go forever. Frankly Im not to concerned about the Ague at this point. I simply want my tank cycle to not go into any new cycles once the lights go on)

My advice would be to slow down take your apex off line and stop chasing numbers

I will go grab a single snail to start the clean up as there is plenty to eat in there. (It may not show up in the pictures just yet)

Again Thank You so much for your words of wisdom Retro!! I will take all this in.

Welcome to the start of the new tank uglies!

Thanks!! I Think!

An ammonia spike was like the cause of death for your new additions

All three times? And withing 24 hours of addition? I literally watched one crawl out of his shell within an hour of going in. That is why I am leaning so strongly on the metals. Could an ammonia spike happen and kill that fast?

what are you using to measure salinity? My recommendation is either a manual or digital refractometer

I am using a manual Refractometer Calibrated every 5-8 tests

Again Thanks IHaveCrabs I appreciate your help.

Just for good measure, you may want to pick up some Polyfilter

I will do this! Thank you for the heads up!

I would not empty the tank and start over, as you will be getting rid of the beneficial bacteria that have established themselves. Do a large water change to get your tank balances run the carbon, add some Polyfilter for a few days, and let it do it's thing

Again I agree with this as I have a hard time flushing all this life down the drain again.

Thanks SawCJack

A year from now you'll look back and laugh, and you'll be happy you didn't quit.

I hope you are right!

 

[lbacha]

I wouldn't worry about Alk, cal or mag until the tank is a few months old and you start adding stony corals, you may never need to worry about it if you are going for a softy tank. I would also make sure you are adding something to create ammonia daily to the tank while you don't have anything living in it. I have seen people that think their tank is cycled only to have the cycle start when they start adding fish and cuc because they didn't add enough ammonia during the cycle to truly build up enough bacteria in the tank.

Back to the cal, Alk and mag thing I would add any additives to the tank at this point other than bacteria and an ammonia source. Water changes alone will keep everything in line

 

[Dierks]

Thanks for the thoughts!! I again I welcome them all and appreciate each one of them.

I wouldn't worry about Alk, cal or mag until the tank is a few months old and you start adding stony corals, you may never need to worry about it if you are going for a softy tank.

Okay well this makes me feel much better at this point, yet I feel as if I should get these in line and as you stated the regular water change I will be doing as soon as I get my new bucket of salt (I still have some old stuff) My hope/plan is to run a tank with mainly acans... With a tiny bit of others mixed in.

I would also make sure you are adding something to create ammonia daily to the tank while you don't have anything living in it.

I did forget to mention I have been ghost feeding the tank since I pulled the shrimp and when I thought the cycle ended per my data on the spreadsheet.

Thanks Everyone, you all are a get help. I will wait for a couple more people to chime in before I make any action tomorrow. I hope to get any sort of life in the tank when everyone thinks its time.

 

[manilaboy1vic]

you can try running chemipure elite to keep the algae in check. its just carbon and gfo mixed.. rinse it out first.

 

[Dierks]

So many Questions!! Haha! Thanks again guys.

So.... Do you think I should give one snail a shot?

 

[manilaboy1vic]

i mean you can get a tunze scraper and keep that glass clean, a million times faster than any snail.. i would test the water before adding any livestock.. just make sure it cycled..

0 ammonia
0 nitrites
1-5 nitrates

 

[Rodolfo Herrera Jr]

Patience, patience, patience. Is the key. I actually cycled my old rock for 4 months. With lid on a tote container, heater, and power head.

 

[NY_Caveman]

Patience, patience, patience. Is the key. I actually cycled my old rock for 4 months. With lid on a tote container, heater, and power head.

LOL, my rocks have been maturing in a bucket after cycling for a little over three months now.

 

[Dierks]

i mean you can get a tunze scraper and keep that glass clean, a million times faster than any snail.. i would test the water before adding any livestock.. just make sure it cycled..

0 ammonia
0 nitrites
1-5 nitrates

This is where I am at. Have been in this hold pattern for the last 10 Days. Holding steady at 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite and about 7 Nitrates as of now.
As you can see I am also a firm believer in testing!! haha. Thanks for the advice!

Patience, patience, patience.

So you don't think I should do anything yet? I am getting mixed advise on this. Some are saying get one CUC in there and others are saying no....

I am mainly afraid that I will have to recycle my tank again when livestock goes into the tank if I don't get something producing the ammonia for me. I have read about people thinking there cycle was done, people saying to do nothing and wait. Then when they add livestock the tank cycles again... It really is my only concern at this point, I certainly can hold off longer if you folks think I should!

Thanks everyone!

 

[NY_Caveman]

The answer is it is up to you. Your opinion counts most. Eventually you will add one snail, or one fish and then watch that critter for a week or two. If the testing shows your system can handle that, repeat and wait again doing the same. I feel it is also important to note, a tank never really finishes a cycle. Bacteria will adapt every time the bioload changes. Up or down. You may add a fish and see a small Ammonia spike. That is fine and the system adjusts. No one can really say when and how much livestock is right for your system which is why the general recommendation is always go slow.

If you believe you are cycled and still wait, the bacteria is not going anywhere. You do not really have to worry about an Ammonia source to keep it going. It may slow down its metabolism, but it will ramp back up as the bioload increases.

 

[Dierks]

Well.....

I added one Crab and One Snail with same results.

• Since I have Looked for any electricity in the Tank. (None Found)
• I have shut down everything but the return pump just to double check with same results

So it has to be the salt.... There is nothing left except one last thought....

• I 3D Printed my Algae Scrubber Top Bar with PETG Plastic. MAYBE the plastic is leaching something? I have read in a lot of places that 3D Printing with Food Safe Plastic is fine and have had no ill results.
  • Also this Study shows it safe as well. But I have since removed it just to be safe.
• Again I am reaching here, but it is the only thing left on my entire system that isn't "Made for Marine Life" everything else has been bought.

I am going to go buy some Instant Ocean and see where I end up, I think my test will be to mix up 10 Gallons of IO, put in critters to verify that my acclimation methods are okay. If they live just fine then I know its the salt. Essentially set up a quarantine tank to test. Not sure what else to do. If that doesn't work I am at my ropes end.

On the bright side my Algae Scrubber is doing great!!! It is growing Algae as it should and is nice bright green 3 weeks in.

 

[lzrlvr]

Hi that is a lot of information here is a picture of my 11 week old simple nano.;