4,100k 315w ceramic metal halide for coral growth

[Lousybreed]

Ok, a couple of notes. I have a nice little PAR meter at home. I have all 3 technologies (T5, LED, Metal Halide). Lumen per watt is not an apples to apples comparison. In real world testing of par and also input wattage, LED is marginally better than T-5 and Halides. You need two Radions to equal one properly driven Radium 20k based on PAR coverage. The wattage between the two technologies are negligible. Also assuming an LED will run for more than 5 years without failure is false. I think you are going off of data online vs. real world observations and self generated data.

I have done a complete analysis on T-5 vs LED for a 10'x5' frag tank. It takes 5 years for the Radion LED's to start saving money compared to an ATI T-5 system. I talked with someone very high up in the coral propagation world and he confessed that one Radion Pro 30 at best covers a 24" square, he actually uses 3 radion pro 30's for a 2'x4' frag tank. For a 3' x 6' tank that WWC runs, they use 6 radions, the exact same ratio as my source stated. Back to the 2'x4' frag tank, that is a total of 570 watts of power. You can easily cover a 2'x4' frag tank with two 250w metal halides and draw from the wall will be at 575 watts. If you compare PAR output, the halides win for overall par output. Again this is on my actual data.

Ceramic metal halides, when compared to regular halides are the un-matched PAR monsters of the industry. I have no doubt that they will blow away the LED fixtures. Once I buy a CMH until I will prove it!!!

 

[Lousybreed]

There are endless posts about if you factor in heating costs for your system, then there is zero payback on LED's. I live in WI and I can tell you that I need heat in my tanks 8 months out of the year. It is very important to look at the data as a whole and not just focus in on stats.

I will agree that LED light manufacturers do the best job in marketing their product.

 

[Lousybreed]

Think 6500k is about the "limit of acceptance" to visual appeal and though low K "tests" aren't commonly available the current data leads one to stop at 6500k.

will 4000k grow things better than 6500k?
Certainly won't look better.
you need to like yellow..
There is very little argument that the more blue the better. There is argument as to how much of other colors..

Best Growth - Blue Light, White Light, or a Combination of the Two?

6500k, 10000k, 14-20000k.....spectrum Running LEds, is there way for us simpletons to measure the color temperature we have our fixtures set at? It sure would be nice to know that what looks good to us is also in some sort of acceptable spectrum range.

www.reef2reef.com

you could be the most recent (like I said I'm SURE it's been done) to try.

I looked at this post. All opinion and no real data. Data means here was the growth rate with this light and with this light. I measure growth rate based on weight of my test corals (they are on tiles). That post is nothing but opinion. This is for coral propagation so I don’t care about how it looks. When customers come over I can kill the CMH for them to look at the color. Also remember that I will be using 1:1 with the Orphek blue LED’s so the actual color of the frag tank will be above 4,100k....my guess is around 8,000k but I will only know once I get the fixtures and test it out.

 

[oreo54]

Here's a start.. Keep in mind that it can be species dependent..
http://www.marineaquarium.gr/downloads/light.pdf

4.3. ‘Optimum’ substrate and light regime for culture
For the specific lamps and substrates examined, the ‘best’ regime for the propagation of
Acropora solitaryensis is a combination of 20 000 Kelvin lamps and cement blocks as
attachment substrate (Fig. 7); this combination yielded a survival rate of 83% at a growth
rate of 10.9 mg d-1. Identification of the optimum treatment depends, however, on time spent
in the aquaria. This aspect is relevant when corals are maintained for short periods only,
such as holding tanks and rapid sell-on of corals in retail settings with high turnover. In such
circumstances it may be possible to use the cheaper 5 500 Kelvin lamps if the corals are to
be kept for 1 month or less, as this lamp performed best in terms of survival during the first
month. Growth under this light was, however, slow, ranking second lowest overall, and
survival rates declined to 51 - 73% over the next two months (Table 5). Thus, short-term
survival of this particular species is possible under low Kelvin lamps, but mass gain is
enhanced with lamps at 14 000 Kelvin and above. It must be stressed that this ranking
applies for the specific lamps tested and the species of coral cultured – other corals may
react differently to the same or different lamp specifications.

Counterpoint.. last post:

Best kelvin for coral growth

What's the best kelven 250w halide for coral growth. :thanks:

www.ultimatereef.net

not Kelvin related.. more for species dependent differences..

Feature Article: Coral growth under Light Emitting Diode and Light Emitting Plasma: a cross-family comparison

With the advent of new technology, aquarists are able to customize light spectra with great flexibility. However, our knowledge of how light spectrum affects aquarium life, including corals, is still limited. Here, we show the effects of two light spectra, emitted by Light Emitting Diode (LED)...

www.advancedaquarist.com

Although it is known that corals can grow under virtually any light source, provided that light quality and quantity are sufficient, the effects of light spectrum on coral growth, coloration and physiology have only been documented for a few species (Wijgerde et al. 2012; D'Angelo et al. 2008; Mass et al. 2010b, respectively).


The most commonly used combination of LED lights produces light that is skewed towards to the blue part of the electromagnetic spectrum, whereas LEP emits a spectrum with a more balanced power distribution between colors. Here, we present the effects of these increasingly popular light sources, with different spectra, on the growth of ten commercially important coral species. In addition, we show how the spectra produced by LED and LEP affect coral growth at three irradiance levels frequently measured in culture systems and home aquaria. The data from this study can be used to optimize coral aquaculture protocols.

 

[Lousybreed]

Thank you and I will read these articles!

 

[Lousybreed]

So I have read the articles and I am wondering if we have enough data to really go off of? I am thinking you are on to something however and I need to do additional research until anything is purchased.

Is anyone else having issues getting advanced aquarist to pop up. It keeps saying that there is a security issue?

 

[d.fast]

That's a lot of orange/red to compensate for..

If my "research" into bulb history is accurate.. sort of going backwards to the "old days".

That is a fairly nice looking spectrum for my taste! Where did you get it? The ones I get for the Philips lamps on Philips website seems to be slightly weaker in the blue part and have even stronger red and orange. I like warm light and have tried a few 4000-5300 K MH lamps, they look quite nice, but I always swap them out in the end. Not because of the red and orange spectrum though, but because of the large amount of green light. The lower K MH bulbs always seem to have a lot of green and it just gives my room a nasty green tint. I have yellow walls and they just don't resonate well with it. The tank itself looks weird with the green too but not to the same extent.

It's also a shame Philips only seem to have single ended bulbs in the ceramic range, Osram has some ceramic double ended bulbs(HCI TS 942) but they also seem to have less blue spectrum and more of green and red. That is one of the best parts about LEDs, most white LEDs are based on blue emitters so they almost always have a decent blue range. Have not found or been able to build any LED fixtures yet that have satisfied my need though. Would like a fanless and slim fixture with a large nice spread. I will probably have to try making a fixture with many smaller emitters spread over a larger heatsink, sort of like the GNC lights. But that is very time consuming to build and the heatsink will be expensive. Leds probably too if I want any decent ones. A new MH bulb costs 60-70$ to replace while the LED fixture will probably cost five times that in the end, if I build it myself.

 

[Lousybreed]

check out the spectrum on this one....there is a large green peak like you mentioned. I love the extra UV this bulb kicks out.

Log In ‹ EYE Hortilux — WordPress

eyehortilux.com

 

[EMeyer]

Great discussion everyone! I will clear up several things. The bulbs that have a higher kelvin rating than 4200k are normal metal halides that have the CMH base.

Maybe a tangent to the main discussion and maybe not. Sounds like you have it on good authority the 10000k "CMH" bulbs are not actually CMH. Just in terms of the advertised stats, arent they still a big improvement on the typical MH?
The ones I linked (which were just the first 10k rated ones I came across) claimed about 1.6 years with >90% of max PAR.
disclaimer, I am a MH newbie so I could be wrong about most or all of the above

 

[oreo54]

So I have read the articles and I am wondering if we have enough data to really go off of? I am thinking you are on to something however and I need to do additional research until anything is purchased.

Is anyone else having issues getting advanced aquarist to pop up. It keeps saying that there is a security issue?

Yes there are problems w/ their security cert..
Been that way for months.. nobody apparently wants to fix it..

SSL Server Test: www.advancedaquarist.com (Powered by Qualys SSL Labs)

 

[rickyb]

Interesting topic.

 

[oreo54]

That is a fairly nice looking spectrum for my taste! Where did you get it? The ones I get for the Philips lamps on Philips website seems to be slightly weaker in the blue part and have even stronger red and orange. I like warm light and have tried a few 4000-5300 K MH lamps, they look quite nice, but I always swap them out in the end. Not because of the red and orange spectrum though, but because of the large amount of green light. The lower K MH bulbs always seem to have a lot of green and it just gives my room a nasty green tint. I have yellow walls and they just don't resonate well with it. The tank itself looks weird with the green too but not to the same extent.

It's also a shame Philips only seem to have single ended bulbs in the ceramic range, Osram has some ceramic double ended bulbs(HCI TS 942) but they also seem to have less blue spectrum and more of green and red. That is one of the best parts about LEDs, most white LEDs are based on blue emitters so they almost always have a decent blue range. Have not found or been able to build any LED fixtures yet that have satisfied my need though. Would like a fanless and slim fixture with a large nice spread. I will probably have to try making a fixture with many smaller emitters spread over a larger heatsink, sort of like the GNC lights. But that is very time consuming to build and the heatsink will be expensive. Leds probably too if I want any decent ones. A new MH bulb costs 60-70$ to replace while the LED fixture will probably cost five times that in the end, if I build it myself.

You could build something like this..
Experimental and no prototype.
The amount of violets is optional..
Need to like a purple tint though..

 

[yellojello]

Watching... I think I’m on my last 20k radium bulbs before switching to to LED or T5. Typically I buy 2 pairs of bulbs every other Black Friday. This time I didn’t. Will be the 10th year on these halides.

I actually like my T5/led bar setup on my frag tank.

 

[Lousybreed]

Maybe a tangent to the main discussion and maybe not. Sounds like you have it on good authority the 10000k "CMH" bulbs are not actually CMH. Just in terms of the advertised stats, arent they still a big improvement on the typical MH?
The ones I linked (which were just the first 10k rated ones I came across) claimed about 1.6 years with >90% of max PAR.
disclaimer, I am a MH newbie so I could be wrong about most or all of the above

Hey I will take a look tomorrow. You might be right.....

 

[jez]

Being one of the older guys my first home-built halide was a 4800k Osram building light mixed with the old Phillips Actinic. Grow Corals it will, back then we were more focussed on keeping them alive than colouration but growth was good and it was that change from a mass of SO flourescent that was a game-changer.

When Led first came out if you asked me to set you up a system to grow coral I would have reached for my trusty Iwasaki 6500 radium blau and we are off to races fast growing good colour blah blah with most things.

Ask me now we have modern lights like Radion etc I really could not be bothered to go back to all the heat, weight, and bulb replacement cost. I can grow and colour the hell out of corals with modern tech.

That said getting your own experience of lower kelvin halides is all part of growing in knowledge and experience as a reefkeeper so do it and report back that how we all got better at it.

 

[Lousybreed]

Being one of the older guys my first home-built halide was a 4800k Osram building light mixed with the old Phillips Actinic. Grow Corals it will, back then we were more focussed on keeping them alive than colouration but growth was good and it was that change from a mass of SO flourescent that was a game-changer.

When Led first came out if you asked me to set you up a system to grow coral I would have reached for my trusty Iwasaki 6500 radium blau and we are off to races fast growing good colour blah blah with most things.

Ask me now we have modern lights like Radion etc I really could not be bothered to go back to all the heat, weight, and bulb replacement cost. I can grow and colour the hell out of corals with modern tech.

That said getting your own experience of lower kelvin halides is all part of growing in knowledge and experience as a reefkeeper so do it and report back that how we all got better at it.

I hear you. On my DT I have a pure 20k look and would never change it. I am really just thinking about frag and colony growouts at this point. All my frags grown in the "6500k" light would be put in a finishing frag system that would be the standard LED/T-5 lighting to get them ready for people's tanks and to get them looking better. I am excited on looking into this and reporting back...but it will be a while.

 

[Loverman Smith]

Ok, a couple of notes. I have a nice little PAR meter at home. I have all 3 technologies (T5, LED, Metal Halide). Lumen per watt is not an apples to apples comparison. In real world testing of par and also input wattage, LED is marginally better than T-5 and Halides. You need two Radions to equal one properly driven Radium 20k based on PAR coverage. The wattage between the two technologies are negligible. Also assuming an LED will run for more than 5 years without failure is false. I think you are going off of data online vs. real world observations and self generated data.

I have done a complete analysis on T-5 vs LED for a 10'x5' frag tank. It takes 5 years for the Radion LED's to start saving money compared to an ATI T-5 system. I talked with someone very high up in the coral propagation world and he confessed that one Radion Pro 30 at best covers a 24" square, he actually uses 3 radion pro 30's for a 2'x4' frag tank. For a 3' x 6' tank that WWC runs, they use 6 radions, the exact same ratio as my source stated. Back to the 2'x4' frag tank, that is a total of 570 watts of power. You can easily cover a 2'x4' frag tank with two 250w metal halides and draw from the wall will be at 575 watts. If you compare PAR output, the halides win for overall par output. Again this is on my actual data.

Ceramic metal halides, when compared to regular halides are the un-matched PAR monsters of the industry. I have no doubt that they will blow away the LED fixtures. Once I buy a CMH until I will prove it!!!

I like your way of thinking ! Coverage , long term cost , Cutting edge lighting , Thank you ! Please keep up the good work ! Heat ! Running an aquarium heater probably ain't cheap 8 months a year . Color balancing .

 

[Loverman Smith]

I hear you. On my DT I have a pure 20k look and would never change it. I am really just thinking about frag and colony growouts at this point. All my frags grown in the "6500k" light would be put in a finishing frag system that would be the standard LED/T-5 lighting to get them ready for people's tanks and to get them looking better. I am excited on looking into this and reporting back...but it will be a while.

What lights are you running on your DT

 

[madweazl]

Spectrum on the 10000k actually looks pretty good.

 

[naterealbig]

Spectrum on the 10000k actually looks pretty good.

Loving the levels in the 350-420 nm range.....

Don't guess you could run these on a 250/400w switchable electronic ballast....