7 Weeks- No Cycle: could I have done something which would prevent my tank from ever cycling?

[Gup]

Could soaking in city water be the culprit? Can be full of various forms of chlorine and things like copper.

After my recent crash, I broke the tank down, placed my survivors in a clean sump and gave the sand and rock [a scrubbing] both a lengthy rinse in saltwater twice over. Brandon save me some solid advice. My 3 survivors are eating aggressively and things are look okay.... 4 now

 

[vhoang2]

Just wanted to share. My tank is at day 13 today. Ammonia still at 2. Nitrite at 1. Used Dr Tim ammonia chloride and One and Only. Also used Microbacter7. I’m getting Frizt Turbo 900, will add that when it comes. I hope tank will cycle in 2 more weeks. Only have Live Sand and Dry Live Rocks from Caribsea.

 

[Azedenkae]

1) Problem: (Growing Despair)
75 gallon, bare bottom, dry rock fishless cycle using Microbacter7 (per instructions) using new API tests.
Now at 7 weeks I still have a consistent 2ppm ammonia (initially from raw shrimp, and now Dr. Tim's ammonia)
but the ammonia level never drops, and I've seen no sign of any conversion to nitrite or nitrate (Api tests have always shown 0.00)
My 75 gallon cycle tank has no light, 80 degree water, lower salinity (1.020) and 2,500 gph powerhead flow.
It half full of Pukani rock (from BRS), I have a couple hundred 1" bio balls (for future quarantine tank use).

2) Background: (Bleach and Citric Acid)
I had a reef tank for 3 years, started with live rock, quick cycle, but too many pests made me decide to shut it down a couple years ago.
Now I'm restarting trying my best to avoid pests this time.
So after watching hundreds of online videos (i.e. BRS) I have been aiming toward a bare bottom, dry rock for a 120 gal display tank with a 40 breeder sump.
I prepared myself for the long "4 month cycle"
So I bleach soaked everything for a week in a 40 Gal Brute can (10% basic Clorox - no fragrances)
I rinsed and rinsed, then soaked for another week in city water, then used plenty of Chloram-X to remove bleach/chloramines.
I sat all the rocks out to dry in my furnace room for a full month hoping any embedded remaining bleach would evaporate.
I have a Hanna chlorine checker and my cycle water reads 0.00 chlorine (my tap water reads 1.98)
All this was due to fear that I wouldn't be able to get the bleach out of my rock and it would kill any nitrifying bacteria as soon as it appeared.
I also cleaned my pumps, heaters and protein skimmer in citric acid (and thought I rinsed and soaked them adequately - another 24 hours in RODI)

3) Last Friday (Ricochet)
After listening for months to BRS videos advocating the virtues of bare bottom, dry rock cycling, last Friday they put out a video saying they personally had now abandoned that approach because it was just "too sterile". What they didn't realize was that the bare bottom/dry rock model they thought they were emulating (from world wide corals) was missing the part where they were actually dumping a bunch of mature live rock into the tank to seed everything! (Cheating...) So the BRS host Ryan, bought a ton of Ocean Direct live sand and threw it all into his own bare bottom tank and encouraged his listeners to start using live rock or live sand.

Well, that's fine, but the whole point was to avoid starting your brand new system with all the pests from somebody else's "mature" system. I do understand this prior approach is just too sterile and the lack of the massive surface area of sand will create more problems than the ongoing maintenance it will definitely require. So I ordered a couple 40 lb bags of CaribSea special dry sand -- but instead of trying to get my live bacteria from live rock, sand or off coral frags, I ordered a bottom of Dr. Tim's Only and Only live bacteria hoping it will accomplish the same thing, except avoid the potential pest problem.

4) Two questions rear their ugly heads (Advice?)
A) Is my cycle normal or broken?
Is my unchanging cycle conditions unfortunately "normal" for a sterile cycle?
Or how likely is it, that I may have introduced some sort of bacteria killer to my system?

B) Cycle tank: Keep going or restart?
Should I just add the sand and live bacteria to the existing 7 week tank to push it to finally cycle?
Or does no drop in ammonia levels and the absence of any nitrite/nitrate indicate something is killing my bacteria
and given time, would kill Dr. Tim's live bacteria too?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can offer.

I had troubles with cycling with Microbacter7, my new tank saw no decline in ammonia for two weeks. Added FritzZyme Turbo Start 900, and boom, nitrites readings right away.

I am not saying I am 100% sure MB7 is the issue, but it could be the case, and if so yeah, maybe just try Fritz.

 

[vhoang2]

I had troubles with cycling with Microbacter7, my new tank saw no decline in ammonia for two weeks. Added FritzZyme Turbo Start 900, and boom, nitrites readings right away.

I am not saying I am 100% sure MB7 is the issue, but it could be the case, and if so yeah, maybe just try Fritz.

I feel the same that MB7 did nothing for me hence ordering the FT900

 

[Steve Carlson]

The end of my story: Dry rock that never seemed to cycle.
First, I have been amazed at all the help here. Thanks.
I also realize that now that this post's conclusion is now down on the bottom of page three, it's likely that it will never see the light of day. But if someone does find it, I hope this proves helpful in some way.

1) At day 49 (7 weeks) -- At prior time of writing -- Bleached dry rock sterile cycle attempting with shrimp, Microbacter7 (no sign of nitrite)

2) At day 51 - I broke down and paid for a bottle of live bacteria (Dr. Tim's) and used Dr. Tim's ammonia for bacteria food.

3) At day 58 - (7 days with Dr. Tim's bacteria) I saw a hint of color change indicating some nitrite

4) At day 61 (10 days with Dr. Tim's bacteria) Now seeing plenty of nitrite and the first hint of nitrate.

5) At day 74 (23 days with Dr. Tim) My tests were saying it had finally cycled.

Conclusion: Would my live rock have cycled without paying for a live bacteria? Probably, but I don't know when.
Would I ever do a sterile dry rock cycle again to prevent pests? Absolutely - every single time.
Would I ever try to cycle a tank without starting with live bacteria? NEVER AGAIN.

Yes, in terms of money, I'm about as tight as a rusted nut, but because of this experience, I will always pay for the live bacteria.

Since then I have 4 quarantine tanks in my basement (76 days for the corals, and for the invertebrates, 60 days for each tank of fish following Humblefish's quarantine model). It was really hard trying to label and separate all equipment for each tank to never cross contaminate, but I'm much more hopeful going this route rather than the dump and pray method.

 

[Garf]

The end of my story: Dry rock that never seemed to cycle.
First, I have been amazed at all the help here. Thanks.
I also realize that now that this post's conclusion is now down on the bottom of page three, it's likely that it will never see the light of day. But if someone does find it, I hope this proves helpful in some way.

1) At day 49 (7 weeks) -- At prior time of writing -- Bleached dry rock sterile cycle attempting with shrimp, Microbacter7 (no sign of nitrite)

2) At day 51 - I broke down and paid for a bottle of live bacteria (Dr. Tim's) and used Dr. Tim's ammonia for bacteria food.

3) At day 58 - (7 days with Dr. Tim's bacteria) I saw a hint of color change indicating some nitrite

4) At day 61 (10 days with Dr. Tim's bacteria) Now seeing plenty of nitrite and the first hint of nitrate.

5) At day 74 (23 days with Dr. Tim) My tests were saying it had finally cycled.

Conclusion: Would my live rock have cycled without paying for a live bacteria? Probably, but I don't know when.
Would I ever do a sterile dry rock cycle again to prevent pests? Absolutely - every single time.
Would I ever try to cycle a tank without starting with live bacteria? NEVER AGAIN.

Yes, in terms of money, I'm about as tight as a rusted nut, but because of this experience, I will always pay for the live bacteria.

Since then I have 4 quarantine tanks in my basement (76 days for the corals, and for the invertebrates, 60 days for each tank of fish following Humblefish's quarantine model). It was really hard trying to label and separate all equipment for each tank to never cross contaminate, but I'm much more hopeful going this route rather than the dump and pray method.

Congrats. Patience is obviously not in short supply in the Steve Carlson household.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Strange, I preformed an experiment with seneye and did see a cycle with sterile rock/bucket/water and no added bacteria.

 

[brandon429]

Neon that's why your experiment is really going to help forward cycling science. All the measurements in this thread (and deductions) = not seneye

Using digital ammonia assessment means, and updated cycling science (no nitrite factored) he was cycled much sooner than stated.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Neon that's why your experiment is really going to help forward cycling science. All the measurements in this thread (and deductions) = not seneye

Using digital ammonia assessment means, and updated cycling science (no nitrite factored) he was cycled on day ten ish heh

I do think that Lasse had a decent point in mentioning that ammonia reduction can happen without bacteria present. The experiment has some ambient lighting and was not enclosed but I still think that in OP's case he would have seen something (either bacterial develop or algae using ammonia). I think the presence of nitrite in that experiment indicate that the bacteria did develop with sterile rock and no bottle bac added.

 

[brandon429]

Based on the slowness of mb7 for cycling vs dedicated strains like biospira i would put his ready date at 30 days like a cycling chart but it would take clean water and seneye testing to see it. It's not required to digest an entire shrimp in order to be cycled, to be cycled we need test kits that report decently and a clean water oxidation test. Yours was a great test I thought.


*no harm in waiting a few months either like Steve did, it's not always a race to begin either. The brs delayed method has entrants wait four months of submersion before beginning, helps the rocks get a nice benthic support web going vs the quick start available just for ammonia control.