A better understanding of ESV B-Ionic 2-Part

[LadyTang2]

I just started using b ionic. I switched from kalk, and then tried all for reef, before going with esv.

I've found it very potent though, I only need to use half what the calculators call for to meet my demand, and thats with it diluted 50% to boot.

The 16oz bottles might last my nano years. Lol

Did you have an issue or concern with the all for reef?

 

[MrsBugmaster]

Thanks for sharing this helpful info!

 

[Gil Guajardo]

Did you have an issue or concern with the all for reef?

That's what I was wondering? Maybe just the price?

@MrArcana

 

[EliteSocial]

I purposely did no water changed for 4 months in my old tank (240G system). Just dosed 100ML of ESV (200ML total) per day. Had an ICP test complete after 4 months and the only thing not perfect (in the green) was phosphorus...Love this stuff

Your dose was exactly the same for ALK and CAL?
I find my tank is like 30-40% on ALK consumption !

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Your dose was exactly the same for ALK and CAL?
I find my tank is like 30-40% on ALK consumption !

Equal parts dosing is the expected norm to balance consumption, except if you do water changes that do not match the tank, or if nitrate is rising, falling, or being dosed (all of which impact alk), or if you use tap water that can add alk and/or calcium.

 

[EliteSocial]

Equal parts dosing is the expected norm to balance consumption, except if you do water changes that do not match the tank, or if nitrate is rising, falling, or being dosed (all of which impact alk), or if you use tap water that can add alk and/or calcium.

Even though it is "expected" I have found my ALK consumption just way outpaces the CAL consumption.

 

[Stain]

Even though it is "expected" I have found my ALK consumption just way outpaces the CAL consumption.

I started equal dosing, but my cal slowly rose to over 500. Small system, total volume 30gal but im dosing more alk then cal. Also using esv mag. I keep my alk around 9, cal around 430ish and mag 1360ish. Dosing 20.2ml part 1, 17.7ml part 2, 4ml mag daily. Its a sps only tank.

 

[EliteSocial]

I started equal dosing, but my cal slowly rose to over 500. Small system, total volume 30gal but im dosing more alk then cal. Also using esv mag. I keep my alk around 9, cal around 430ish and mag 1360ish. Dosing 20.2ml part 1, 17.7ml part 2, 4ml mag daily. Its a sps only tank.

Glad to hear someone else has the same result.

My tank consumed SO much extra ALK than CAL, that I buy the big 4 gal buckets.
I have used TWO ALK buckets, and I have an entire FULL CAL bucket sitting there LOL (over a year + of course)

 

[stevolough]

They say to dose equal amounts but I’ve never had much success. Even though my numbers stay in the balanced range my sand bed turns to stone. I assume it’s precipitation but I have none on my heaters. Never understood why it happens

 

[Stain]

Even though my numbers stay in the balanced range my sand bed turns to stone.

I found running my cal over 500 did that to my sand. That was when I was dosing equal parts to keep my alk at 9. Whats your cal?

 

[stevolough]

I found running my cal over 500 did that to my sand. That was when I was dosing equal parts to keep my alk at 9. Whats your cal?

I always tried for 8.4 alk and 420 cal. That’s what my salifert tests would read. But when I stop dosing my alk would start to drop more then my cal so I would use a different alk supplement to maintain alk and my cal would be stable for several days

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Even though it is "expected" I have found my ALK consumption just way outpaces the CAL consumption.

OK, but there is a chemical reality that should not be dismissed, as I fear you are doing.

In my opinion, most people making such claims are not actually experiencing unbalanced demand. About the ONLY way that can happen is with rising or falling nitrate, or dosing nitrate.

Most of the people making such claims, when it is really explored in detail, have other issues, such as

1. not using a two part actually meant for 1:1 dosing (even with ESV B-ionic there are two different recipes and using the calcium from one recipe and the alk from the other for 1:1 dosing will be off by a big margin),

2. Using a two part that they improperly dilute one part and not the other

3. basing the comment on dosing pump timing rather than the actual amounts being delivered,

4. using the dosing to make up for water changes that do not match the tank in alk and calcium.

5. Rising or falling or dosing nitrate.

6. Test kit error and/or not monitoring long enough to accurately gauge long term demand with hobby kits with a wide margin of error

In the absence of one of these, or some other way you are doing calcium or alk without knowing it, I am skeptical of dosing that is unbalanced by as much as you suggest.

I discuss exactly how and when demand may be unbalanced here:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I always tried for 8.4 alk and 420 cal. That’s what my salifert tests would read. But when I stop dosing my alk would start to drop more then my cal so I would use a different alk supplement to maintain alk and my cal would be stable for several days

That is ALWAYS the exactly expected result of balanced demand because seawater has a huge reservoir of calcium and not much alk. So dropping both by the expected ratio shows easily in alk and hardly at all in calcium.

It is the first "reason" that I suggest for people claiming unbalanced demand in the article above:

Apparent Excess Demand for Alkalinity

One of the most common complaints of new aquarists is that their aquaria seem to need more alkalinity than their balanced additive system, such as limewater, is supplying. While there are reasons this may actually be the case over the long term (these will be detailed later in this article), frequently these aquarists are seeing a "chemical mirage" rather than a real excess demand for alkalinity.

One of the interesting features of seawater is that it contains a lot more calcium than alkalinity. By this I mean that if all of the calcium in seawater (420 ppm; 10.5 meq/L) were to be precipitated as calcium carbonate, it would consume 21 meq/L of alkalinity (nearly 10 times as much as is present in natural seawater). In a less drastic scenario, let's say that calcium carbonate is formed from aquarium water starting with an alkalinity of 3 meq/L that it is allowed to drop to 2 meq/L (a 33% drop). How much has the calcium declined? It is a surprise to many people to learn that the calcium would drop by only 20 ppm (5%). Consequently, many aquarists observe that their calcium levels are relatively stable (within their ability to reproducibly test it), but alkalinity can vary up and down substantially. This is exactly what would be expected, given that the aquarium already has such a large reservoir of calcium.

So the first "deviation" from the rule of calcium and alkalinity balance really isn't a deviation at all. If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity. This scenario should be assumed as the most likely explanation for most aquarists who should look for more esoteric explanations for alkalinity decline only if calcium RISES substantially while alkalinity falls. Likewise, if alkalinity is rising and calcium seems stable when using a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system, the most likely explanation is that too much of the additive system is being used.

The real imbalance effects described later in this article take effect slowly, and are manifested over weeks, months and years. This short term "chemical mirage" caused simply by the mathematics of calcium and alkalinity additions can be seen in a single addition. Any effect that develops rapidly over the course of a few days is almost certainly not a true imbalance.

The following scenarios show what can happen to a reef aquarium whose dosage with a balanced additive system does not match its demand. Table 1 shows what can happen when the dosing is inadequate. Alkalinity drops fairly rapidly. After two days, many aquarists might conclude that they need additional alkalinity, when in reality, they need more of both calcium and alkalinity to stabilize the system.

Table 2 shows what happens when too much of a balanced additive is added. After a few days, many aquarists would conclude that alkalinity is rising too much, but that calcium is fairly stable. Again, what is needed is less of the balanced additive, not just less alkalinity.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

They say to dose equal amounts but I’ve never had much success. Even though my numbers stay in the balanced range my sand bed turns to stone. I assume it’s precipitation but I have none on my heaters. Never understood why it happens

Precipitation has zero to do with balanced dosing or unbalanced dosing.

Unquestionably, the precipitate that forms has the expected ratio of 18-20 ppm or calcium and 0-1 ppm magnesium for each 2.8 dKH of alkalinity consumed.

Preciptiation has more to do with local pH dosing and mixing rates, , the presence of bare calcium carbonate surfaces to act as seed crystals, and the concentrations of other seawater components such as phosphate and magnesium and organics (all of which deter precipitation).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

They say to dose equal amounts but I’ve never had much success. Even though my numbers stay in the balanced range my sand bed turns to stone. I assume it’s precipitation but I have none on my heaters. Never understood why it happens

Welcome to the chemistry forum, where we try to focus on the reasons for doing things, not cookie cutter recipes,.

There are a number of reasons that sand can harden due to precipitation of calcium carbonate. The main reasons are high pH, high alk and high temps (on heaters). Secondary effects are from dosing too fast, high calcium, bare calcium carbonate surfaces (like new sand) and lower levels of organics, phosphate, and magnesium.

These issues are detailed in these articles:

A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

What is that Precipitate in My Reef Aquarium? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[stevolough]

Thank you for your help. I buy the bionic at the same time so I hope I would be getting the same formula. I’ve had the same problem with other brands so obviously I’m doing something wrong. I dose manually so the amount is the same. Because Im not great with the chemistry part of this hobby (and not as smart as I would like) I will check out those links. Again thanks.