A Huge Problem IMO as to why tanks crash and we have so many problems with just about everything.
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I am not sure of those bacteria in a bottle things. I am sure there is bacteria in there and probably the right kind of bacteria for maybe the nitrogen cycle. But that will do nothing for the fishes immunity.
For that we need the natural bacteria in the guts of animals and you only get that from the guts of fish which is why it is called "Gut bacteria" and not "bottle bacteria".
I don't know how many ways to say it but I personally can only write in English, maybe with a little Brooklyn accent. Only gut bacteria will contain the right bacteria, funguses, parasites and viruses fish need to allow their immune system to identify those pathogens so they can deal with them and stay immune.
We humans don't normally eat the guts of other humans, at least I don't. But I am sure 14,000 years ago we did. We ate everything because food was hard to find. But most of us are not cold blooded fish so we don't need to eat guts.
When a fish eats another fish, it doesn't spit out the bones, liver, eyes, intestines or eye lashes. It eats the entire thing.
That brings up another point, fish also eat a lot of calcium. We almost never feed our fish calcium because it is not in shrimp, mysis, squid, scallop, or flakes.
It is probably in those foods in small quantities but when a 500 lb shark eats a 100 lb grouper it is probably getting (I am totally guessing) 10lbs of bones which are almost all calcium.
The mysis we feed fish is mostly shell and that shell is not calcium. It is the same as your fingernails and fish don't eat fingernails.
We can only feed large amounts of calcium by feeding tiny fish but of course, they are not available and I have spoken to fish food manufacturers about that.
There is a lot of calcium in shellfish which is my favorite food but even clams do not have the calcium in bones except in their shells and I can't get my copperband to eat clam shells.
If we feed no clams and no tiny fish, our fish are not getting the calcium they are supposed to get and it is hard to get fish to eat calcium pills.
I am pretty sure there is calcium in flakes and pellets but they have other problems that I mentioned 14 times. I don't know the answer, but I already forgot the question so it is a moot point.
Time to go out to breakfast, maybe I will have clams and eggs. ;Yuck
For that we need the natural bacteria in the guts of animals and you only get that from the guts of fish which is why it is called "Gut bacteria" and not "bottle bacteria".
I don't know how many ways to say it but I personally can only write in English, maybe with a little Brooklyn accent. Only gut bacteria will contain the right bacteria, funguses, parasites and viruses fish need to allow their immune system to identify those pathogens so they can deal with them and stay immune.
We humans don't normally eat the guts of other humans, at least I don't. But I am sure 14,000 years ago we did. We ate everything because food was hard to find. But most of us are not cold blooded fish so we don't need to eat guts.
When a fish eats another fish, it doesn't spit out the bones, liver, eyes, intestines or eye lashes. It eats the entire thing.
That brings up another point, fish also eat a lot of calcium. We almost never feed our fish calcium because it is not in shrimp, mysis, squid, scallop, or flakes.
It is probably in those foods in small quantities but when a 500 lb shark eats a 100 lb grouper it is probably getting (I am totally guessing) 10lbs of bones which are almost all calcium.
The mysis we feed fish is mostly shell and that shell is not calcium. It is the same as your fingernails and fish don't eat fingernails.
We can only feed large amounts of calcium by feeding tiny fish but of course, they are not available and I have spoken to fish food manufacturers about that.
There is a lot of calcium in shellfish which is my favorite food but even clams do not have the calcium in bones except in their shells and I can't get my copperband to eat clam shells.
If we feed no clams and no tiny fish, our fish are not getting the calcium they are supposed to get and it is hard to get fish to eat calcium pills.
I am pretty sure there is calcium in flakes and pellets but they have other problems that I mentioned 14 times. I don't know the answer, but I already forgot the question so it is a moot point.
Time to go out to breakfast, maybe I will have clams and eggs. ;Yuck
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schuby
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I know nothing about clams. If I buy a clam or two, what are the steps to freeze it so that I can slice and feed over time? Shuck it first or later? It doesn't seem that all the insides will freeze well (the non-muscle parts).
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Paul B
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Buy the biggest clams you can find. Partially open the clams just enough to stick a popsicle stick or something else in. Freeze the clam.
When it is frozen, it will now be easier to open it because it is partially open. If the clam is large enough, slice off "meat" in paper thin slices then put the rest of the clam back in the freezer.
If the clams are small, like an inch or two. Do the same thing but you may have to cut off a piece of frozen clam and chop it up. Put the rest of the clam back in the freezer.
When it is frozen, it will now be easier to open it because it is partially open. If the clam is large enough, slice off "meat" in paper thin slices then put the rest of the clam back in the freezer.
If the clams are small, like an inch or two. Do the same thing but you may have to cut off a piece of frozen clam and chop it up. Put the rest of the clam back in the freezer.
schuby
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Found some wonder mud from link by @frank10 in another thread: http://ipsf.com/livesand.html
I'm ordering some asap. Wonder mud and feeding clams will hopefully get me closer to having started my tank with live rock.
I'm ordering some asap. Wonder mud and feeding clams will hopefully get me closer to having started my tank with live rock.
Snoopdog
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PaulB, I have a question if you have a minute. For all of the people out there that have purchased this sterile, dead rock would it be feasible to still use it and seed it with copious amounts of live rock? People like me have purchased tanks with what they call "life rock". Lets say I have 50lbs of life rock, but it is already stacked and maybe even corals glued on it. Could I not get 50lbs of live rock, place some in the tank and the rest in the sump and take some of these issues away?
I do find it sad that many times we do not listen to the older generation. Sure, we often find newer and better ways of doing things because science builds on learning from prior mistakes. In this instance though I think we have moved in the wrong direction. It seems by trying to eliminate a pest problem we did not look at why we used live rock in the first place. I never had issues when I used live rock before, all my rock was from Fiji or the Marshall Islands. The most I ever saw was a hair algae outbreak and that was easily fixed. I am now in this older generation but kids refuse to let me say it, "your not old dad", but they do listen to me. I still rotate my tires and change my oil, not once taken my car for an oil change or mechanical work. When there is work to be done I take one of the kids with me and explain how things are done and why. If they want to pay someone to work on their AC unit, fine but they will have known how to do it themselves.
I do find it sad that many times we do not listen to the older generation. Sure, we often find newer and better ways of doing things because science builds on learning from prior mistakes. In this instance though I think we have moved in the wrong direction. It seems by trying to eliminate a pest problem we did not look at why we used live rock in the first place. I never had issues when I used live rock before, all my rock was from Fiji or the Marshall Islands. The most I ever saw was a hair algae outbreak and that was easily fixed. I am now in this older generation but kids refuse to let me say it, "your not old dad", but they do listen to me. I still rotate my tires and change my oil, not once taken my car for an oil change or mechanical work. When there is work to be done I take one of the kids with me and explain how things are done and why. If they want to pay someone to work on their AC unit, fine but they will have known how to do it themselves.
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Snoopdog. That is great what you do with your kids. I do that with my Son N Law. I also never had anyone touch my car, boat or house but for the last 10 years, I take it for oil changes.
After a while it is just to tough getting under the car any more but I would rather do it myself. I changed my boat oil last week as that is much easier.
As for rock, you certainly could use dead rock. But the tank would be much healthier and cycle quicker if you also add live rock. The more the better but it doesn't have to be all live rock. In a year or two bacteria will spread to everything even pictures of your Mother n Law if you want.
Also, the more bio diversity you can add the better also. Forget hitchhikers unless you see a big crab or lobster.
Hitchhikers will always show up, but 99% of the time they will disappear on their own with no help from you.
The tanks with all the problems are the ones that are tweeked, medicated, quarantened and constantly messed with.
I would never add a chemical to eliminate anything because everything you use has side effects that may never straighten itself out.
Good Luck, time to take my walk to the beach
After a while it is just to tough getting under the car any more but I would rather do it myself. I changed my boat oil last week as that is much easier.
As for rock, you certainly could use dead rock. But the tank would be much healthier and cycle quicker if you also add live rock. The more the better but it doesn't have to be all live rock. In a year or two bacteria will spread to everything even pictures of your Mother n Law if you want.
Also, the more bio diversity you can add the better also. Forget hitchhikers unless you see a big crab or lobster.
Hitchhikers will always show up, but 99% of the time they will disappear on their own with no help from you.
The tanks with all the problems are the ones that are tweeked, medicated, quarantened and constantly messed with.
I would never add a chemical to eliminate anything because everything you use has side effects that may never straighten itself out.
Good Luck, time to take my walk to the beach
Snoopdog
Valuable Member
I am getting live rock from multiple local sources, hopefully to make it more diverse.Snoopdog. That is great what you do with your kids. I do that with my Son N Law. I also never had anyone touch my car, boat or house but for the last 10 years, I take it for oil changes.
After a while it is just to tough getting under the car any more but I would rather do it myself. I changed my boat oil last week as that is much easier.
As for rock, you certainly could use dead rock. But the tank would be much healthier and cycle quicker if you also add live rock. The more the better but it doesn't have to be all live rock. In a year or two bacteria will spread to everything even pictures of your Mother n Law if you want.
Also, the more bio diversity you can add the better also. Forget hitchhikers unless you see a big crab or lobster.
Hitchhikers will always show up, but 99% of the time they will disappear on their own with no help from you.
The tanks with all the problems are the ones that are tweeked, medicated, quarantened and constantly messed with.
I would never add a chemical to eliminate anything because everything you use has side effects that may never straighten itself out.
Good Luck, time to take my walk to the beach
Paul,
When you collect NSW, sand and mud, how do you prepare it before adding it to your tank?
How do you add it to your tank?
Thanks
When you collect NSW, sand and mud, how do you prepare it before adding it to your tank?
How do you add it to your tank?
Thanks
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NDIrish, I don't do anything to it. If it is in a clump of seaweed or something I don't want floating around in my tank I just put it in a net and hang it in the tank for a few days, then remove the stuff.
If it's just some mud, Like a few tablespoons, I just "squirt" it around behind the rocks.
I have an undergravel filter so I can just put some in there.
If it's just some mud, Like a few tablespoons, I just "squirt" it around behind the rocks.
I have an undergravel filter so I can just put some in there.
Back where it all began
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Hi Paul. A late post. I was talking with my lfs who employs very knowledgeable people, usually with college degrees and he absolutely agreed with your philosophy.
He went one step further as to why so many tanks fail. His observations are that we collect corals and fish from all over the earths oceans and place them into a single environment. Our tanks parameters may not be in anyway representative of where our creature originated and it’s dna May barely be suitable for our choice of parameters.
Tanks may be teetering on the edge of disaster more frequently than we realize because of this.
By doing what you are doing to introduce as much diversity into the tank may very well be helping to offset some of this.
His lfs is going to run a trial with a tank they are setting up.
He went one step further as to why so many tanks fail. His observations are that we collect corals and fish from all over the earths oceans and place them into a single environment. Our tanks parameters may not be in anyway representative of where our creature originated and it’s dna May barely be suitable for our choice of parameters.
Tanks may be teetering on the edge of disaster more frequently than we realize because of this.
By doing what you are doing to introduce as much diversity into the tank may very well be helping to offset some of this.
His lfs is going to run a trial with a tank they are setting up.
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Also Paul. What is your impression of the quality of Long Island sound? Being in upper Manhattan, I have easier access to that area.
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Back where it all began, I started my tank with water from the far western Sound but as much as I like bacteria, that stuff is not even water.
There is so much run off from streets, golf courses, fertilizer, frankfurter carts that you can't really use it in a reef any more.
I also SCUBA dove there for 30 years. The closest place to you where the water is pretty clean is a college in Brooklyn, I forget the name but I worked on the construction. I think it's maritime colege or something like that. It's right on the Atlantic and I have collected water from there. I am not sure if you are allowed to to that any more.
I now live 60 miles out on Long Island so I am basically on the Atlantic and the water is clean.
I was up past you yesterday, we went to Nyack.
There is so much run off from streets, golf courses, fertilizer, frankfurter carts that you can't really use it in a reef any more.
I also SCUBA dove there for 30 years. The closest place to you where the water is pretty clean is a college in Brooklyn, I forget the name but I worked on the construction. I think it's maritime colege or something like that. It's right on the Atlantic and I have collected water from there. I am not sure if you are allowed to to that any more.
I now live 60 miles out on Long Island so I am basically on the Atlantic and the water is clean.
I was up past you yesterday, we went to Nyack.
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Great Success.
We hear all about “Great Success” all the time in life and especially on these forums. What is Great Success?
I think it was Great Success when Neil Armstrong first stepped on the moon. I am not sure if some ancient Alien, millions of years prior stepped there first and maybe opened a casino or possibly an Lfs where he sold quarantined fish.
Would that diminish what Mr. Armstrong did? I don’t know.
It does concern me when a hobbyist keeps a certain fish and boasts that he or she has great success. He may say something like “I kept a Moorish Idol and had great success”. He immediately ate franks and beans and I had him since I moved out of my parents basement last week and got a real job running the French frying machine at McDonalds. His Pop Eye receded and He doesn’t have “too many spots” and rarely swims in a corkscrew fashion.
To me Great Success is keeping any creature until it dies of old age. I feel my own Mother had great success raising me because I am pretty old and if I croak tomorrow I can say I died from old age.
Real Great Success is great if it really is an accomplishment to a point where we can all learn something from it. Having great success and keeping it to yourself may be great for you, but it doesn’t help anyone.
Imagine if my mentor and friend Leonardo DiVinci never revealed his masterpieces. What if he just scribbled on the tile walls of his bathroom using a permanent marker from Walmart without ever showing anyone his genius.
What if he called his friend Michaelangelo to ask him if he could use methylene blue for a dye to paint the eyes on his girlfriend, Mona, Mona Lisa. And Michaelangelo just sent back an emoji.
I understand Michaelangelo didn’t like giving out advice much and he would get mad and start to yell if he was disturbed too often. Laying on your back for five years to paint a ceiling while not even having one Gatoraid or one Chiropractic appointment will do that to you. He even used to yell at the Pope who had no sense of humor and would constantly threaten to Excommunicate him. I read that his Pope hat was too small and gave him migraines.
One person Michaelangelo never yelled at was Van Gough.
He wouldn’t hear him anyway because he stupidly cut off his left ear after his main squeeze dissed him for texting her while she was having her nails done.
Another person who almost had great success was Galallio. He discovered the world was round by turning around his refractometer and looking at the stars. The Pope, who used a swing arm hydrometer really hated him
for that and Excommunicated him so all this time he was living in hell where everyone is in quarantine. Of course they exonerated him like 500 years later which was nice of them.
Getting back to fish, very few of us have Great Success because we don’t stay in the hobby long enough. If we leave the hobby in only 8 years we will fail at having great success as most fish related things we keep live longer than that.
That is with the exception of seahorses and pipefish which at one time were not even thought of as fish, but insects. (No really)
Bangai Cardinals have one of the shortest lifespans at about 4 or 5 years so if you want great success and you know you will leave the hobby next year, get one of those.
SPS corals are actually immortal. Mine are not, so I don’t have Great Success with those. Each polyp has a lifespan (I don’t know what it is) but when a new one is “born” it grows on top of it’s parent. (not all SPS do that) Talk about snowflakes. I know a lot of Young adults like that.
One 41 year old I know who lives right near me still lives with his parents. They support him, feed him, clothe him and lend him their car. That should have been my parents. They wanted to throw me out when I was 12.
I have a very old reef tank, is it a great success? I don’t think so. I have no corals that are as old as the tank and my corals are not growing up the walls. Rarely does a Supermodel come over to help me with water changes and I was never asked to speak at one of the world summits in front of nation leaders or CPAs.
I can say I had great success keeping some fish past what is assumed to be their lifespan.
Even though I was here when the hobby started, I failed to convey most of the knowledge I acquired which I believe to be correct. Of course thousands or maybe millions of people disagree with me on every aspect of the hobby from thinking fish even need seawater or can live in damp sawdust. That is fine because I have been wrong so many times.
Just this morning my wife was yelling at me for something but I forgot what it was. Something about yogurt I think.
I do remember I used to think fish could never become immune to parasites. I even wrote in (I think) FAMMA magazine that being immune to parasites was like being immune to bullets.
I wish I could retract that but It was in the 70s and very few people are still alive from then anyway.
I now know that fish can be immune to everything except maybe being Ex communicated.
Unless of course they are Angelfish.
We hear all about “Great Success” all the time in life and especially on these forums. What is Great Success?
I think it was Great Success when Neil Armstrong first stepped on the moon. I am not sure if some ancient Alien, millions of years prior stepped there first and maybe opened a casino or possibly an Lfs where he sold quarantined fish.
Would that diminish what Mr. Armstrong did? I don’t know.
It does concern me when a hobbyist keeps a certain fish and boasts that he or she has great success. He may say something like “I kept a Moorish Idol and had great success”. He immediately ate franks and beans and I had him since I moved out of my parents basement last week and got a real job running the French frying machine at McDonalds. His Pop Eye receded and He doesn’t have “too many spots” and rarely swims in a corkscrew fashion.
To me Great Success is keeping any creature until it dies of old age. I feel my own Mother had great success raising me because I am pretty old and if I croak tomorrow I can say I died from old age.
Real Great Success is great if it really is an accomplishment to a point where we can all learn something from it. Having great success and keeping it to yourself may be great for you, but it doesn’t help anyone.
Imagine if my mentor and friend Leonardo DiVinci never revealed his masterpieces. What if he just scribbled on the tile walls of his bathroom using a permanent marker from Walmart without ever showing anyone his genius.
What if he called his friend Michaelangelo to ask him if he could use methylene blue for a dye to paint the eyes on his girlfriend, Mona, Mona Lisa. And Michaelangelo just sent back an emoji.
I understand Michaelangelo didn’t like giving out advice much and he would get mad and start to yell if he was disturbed too often. Laying on your back for five years to paint a ceiling while not even having one Gatoraid or one Chiropractic appointment will do that to you. He even used to yell at the Pope who had no sense of humor and would constantly threaten to Excommunicate him. I read that his Pope hat was too small and gave him migraines.
One person Michaelangelo never yelled at was Van Gough.
He wouldn’t hear him anyway because he stupidly cut off his left ear after his main squeeze dissed him for texting her while she was having her nails done.
Another person who almost had great success was Galallio. He discovered the world was round by turning around his refractometer and looking at the stars. The Pope, who used a swing arm hydrometer really hated him
for that and Excommunicated him so all this time he was living in hell where everyone is in quarantine. Of course they exonerated him like 500 years later which was nice of them.
Getting back to fish, very few of us have Great Success because we don’t stay in the hobby long enough. If we leave the hobby in only 8 years we will fail at having great success as most fish related things we keep live longer than that.
That is with the exception of seahorses and pipefish which at one time were not even thought of as fish, but insects. (No really)
Bangai Cardinals have one of the shortest lifespans at about 4 or 5 years so if you want great success and you know you will leave the hobby next year, get one of those.
SPS corals are actually immortal. Mine are not, so I don’t have Great Success with those. Each polyp has a lifespan (I don’t know what it is) but when a new one is “born” it grows on top of it’s parent. (not all SPS do that) Talk about snowflakes. I know a lot of Young adults like that.
One 41 year old I know who lives right near me still lives with his parents. They support him, feed him, clothe him and lend him their car. That should have been my parents. They wanted to throw me out when I was 12.
I have a very old reef tank, is it a great success? I don’t think so. I have no corals that are as old as the tank and my corals are not growing up the walls. Rarely does a Supermodel come over to help me with water changes and I was never asked to speak at one of the world summits in front of nation leaders or CPAs.
I can say I had great success keeping some fish past what is assumed to be their lifespan.
Even though I was here when the hobby started, I failed to convey most of the knowledge I acquired which I believe to be correct. Of course thousands or maybe millions of people disagree with me on every aspect of the hobby from thinking fish even need seawater or can live in damp sawdust. That is fine because I have been wrong so many times.
Just this morning my wife was yelling at me for something but I forgot what it was. Something about yogurt I think.
I do remember I used to think fish could never become immune to parasites. I even wrote in (I think) FAMMA magazine that being immune to parasites was like being immune to bullets.
I wish I could retract that but It was in the 70s and very few people are still alive from then anyway.
I now know that fish can be immune to everything except maybe being Ex communicated.
Unless of course they are Angelfish.
I would add that with the relatively recent popularity of nano reef aquariums, people are keeping much smaller fish and crustaceans that have much shorter lifespans (for example, some of these little Eviota goby species have extremely short natural lifespans often measured in months, not years). Personally, I've had some smaller Gobies live 3-4+ years before succumbing to obvious old age. So perhaps one can say 'success', just on a shorter time scale.
Back where it all began
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I
I thought that was you driving by, haha.
Seriously, I appreciate your thoughts and time. I agree about the Sound, too much pollution there. I will be going to clam route. I always feed Rods Herbivore, fish love it, but it’s highly processed of course.
The one liquid I add to my tank is Remediation. It’s a combo of bacteria that are theoretically supposed to aid in breakdown of waste. I use it primarily to add bacteria to physical space to fight off other less than ideal ones. Not the same as what you’re doing in extent.
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To funny, yet I have a nephew in law who is 35, and mommy still does everything for him.
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Thats disquesting and they are not helping him except turning him into a Snowflake.
When I was 12 I was cutting cars apart in an auto wrecking yard using an acetylene torch. Thats how I learned how to work on cars and so far in my entire life, no one touched my car.
We are creating a civilization of snowflakes. ;Bucktooth
snowflakes are beautiful things
ill-mannered useless people that know less about anything than my cat are not
ill-mannered useless people that know less about anything than my cat are not
This was a fun read during my commute...for sure.
I do agree that fish need regular exposure to microorganisms (including the parasites) in order to build a robust immune system and fight off disease.
however, I do feel as though it’s extremely challenging to create a healthy & perfect ‘exposure’ to parasitic microorganisms in the Reefing hobby, while maintaining aesthetics simultaneously.
in nature reefs grow without hesitation- and are not manipulated with to enhance their aesthetics. As a result they appear unkept, and chaotic- however interestingly enough they also appear beautiful and in balance. Likely because they are in balance, down to the micro-level.
I don’t see a feasibility with ‘not cleaning’ our tanks, as our tanks are a very small and very closed system. Whereas in nature, the system is much more open and expansive. The expansion allows for superior balance. If we were to stop husbandry practices on our tanks, pollutants would build up a trillion times faster than the ocean, and a balance would never be reached.
I do love the idea of introducing sources of new bacteria into our tanks (like you do with worms)- as long as these bacteria are naturally occurring in marine environments. I think that the micro diversity would strengthen the ecosystem. I’m curious to hear more about different types of oceanic bacteria and how we could introduce them into our tanks.
Ultimately, I feel that the main contributor to maintaining a healthy reef with healthy inhabitants is consistent water changes. Also good quality fresh food.
I do agree that fish need regular exposure to microorganisms (including the parasites) in order to build a robust immune system and fight off disease.
however, I do feel as though it’s extremely challenging to create a healthy & perfect ‘exposure’ to parasitic microorganisms in the Reefing hobby, while maintaining aesthetics simultaneously.
in nature reefs grow without hesitation- and are not manipulated with to enhance their aesthetics. As a result they appear unkept, and chaotic- however interestingly enough they also appear beautiful and in balance. Likely because they are in balance, down to the micro-level.
I don’t see a feasibility with ‘not cleaning’ our tanks, as our tanks are a very small and very closed system. Whereas in nature, the system is much more open and expansive. The expansion allows for superior balance. If we were to stop husbandry practices on our tanks, pollutants would build up a trillion times faster than the ocean, and a balance would never be reached.
I do love the idea of introducing sources of new bacteria into our tanks (like you do with worms)- as long as these bacteria are naturally occurring in marine environments. I think that the micro diversity would strengthen the ecosystem. I’m curious to hear more about different types of oceanic bacteria and how we could introduce them into our tanks.
Ultimately, I feel that the main contributor to maintaining a healthy reef with healthy inhabitants is consistent water changes. Also good quality fresh food.
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