A Huge Problem IMO as to why tanks crash and we have so many problems with just about everything.

[-XENOMORPH-]

Just found and read this thread. LOVED IT. Ordered ur book. Thank you all for sharing. Will c where it takes me this spring.

 

[jonwright]

So here’s the next stupid question. I have a clam in my tank (large and, well, happy). I’m resistant to feeding the fish clams cause I’d hate for them develop an appetite for clams and eat the one in the tank.

feed clams anyway?? Thoughts?

 

[Paul B]

I normally had clams and fed clams, the fish didn't seem to make the connection but all fish are different.

I can't keep clams now because I have some really large bristle worms and they kill and eat them

 

[Arthur_Dent]

Great thread, @Paul B! Enjoyed it over coffee this morning. Have a question for you.

I enjoy catching things like this. They seem to feel cramped in my fishtank, so I stopped putting them in, but they taste great when converted to tacos.

I've been considering using the row they carry as fish food, or maybe even freezing and grating some of the parts that don't taste great in tacos for the same purpose. Have also been considering scraping some oysters and other gunk off the seawall behind my dock and chunking it into my tank.

Being a boater yourself, which as we know, means we have impeccable intellect and very forgiving wives, I was wondering if you've ever tried anything similar, or if you have thoughts on either of these things.

 

[Paul B]

That fish roe is a very good food if your fish eat it. I would only use a little of it at a time because it is very rich and almost all vitamin A. Feed it with clams. I personally don't like caviar and think it tastes like snot but I will eat just about anything else from the sea.

The oysters and other gunk you scrape from your dock is also excellent and I do it all the time myself. The gunkier it looks, the better.

 

[Arthur_Dent]

That fish roe is a very good food if your fish eat it. I would only use a little of it at a time because it is very rich and almost all vitamin A. Feed it with clams. I personally don't like caviar and think it tastes like snot but I will eat just about anything else from the sea.

The oysters and other gunk you scrape from your dock is also excellent and I do it all the time myself. The gunkier it looks, the better.

Thanks for the input, sir! I do appreciate you, and wishing you and yours the very best. Will give it a go and post back results if anything catches on fire the moment the dock gunk hits my tank water.

 

[salty joe]

I thought long and hard whether to medicate all fish and go hard core QT or go with the Paul B method. What finally made me decide were two things- the gut feeling that I'd lose fish from drugs and QT and I wanted to feed live food. I felt live food would introduce all manner of things, some of which QT is meant to prevent, IDK.

Anyway, my main fishfood has been live mussels, clams and oysters that I freeze. So, it's not alive food after getting frozen but it's the entire critter that my fish eat. Once a week or so I pull all the shells out of my tank. Also, white worms. Only a little over a year but my fish are doing great! It was the right choice for me. I'll add that the tank was established with high quality live rock and that's all that was in the tank for a few years so the system was well aged, if that matters.

Thank you Paul B!

 

[HuduVudu]

I'll add that the tank was established with high quality live rock and that's all that was in the tank for a few years so the system was well aged, if that matters.

It does matter. Getting people to understand that it does ... well that is a different story altogether.

 

[fishmonkey]

I am not the smartest fish keeper in the world, but I am probably one of the oldest. Being one of the oldest, I have also had more time to study this stuff and more time to make mistakes. Mistakes are one way we learn. A very good way.

It's actually how they train you in basic training in the Army or Marines. By forcing you to do impossible tasks, knowing you can't do them, then punishing you for not doing it correctly. Eventually, you learn what they want you to do while never completing those tasks correctly.

Trust me, it works.

I was a Noob at one time and that time was the 1950s, yes the world as we know it was around then and so were fish. We had the same problems then as we do now but a few of us learned, after many dead fish what we were doing wrong and I think I got it.

Most people in this hobby do something and it works, and they think they found the secret, but we may be talking about a time frame of a few months or a couple of years. A common hermit crab lives over 12 years so if we keep one for a couple of years, it is not "Great Success". To have a reef tank for four or five years without crashing, although is an accomplishment that few people ever attain is also not a Great Success and we should strive for more. We should always strive for more.

IMO a reef tank should be immortal or "live" as long as it's owner. Of course fish are not immortal, but most of them live much longer than people stay in this hobby.

Corals are immortal and can keep living while growing new polyps on top of older ones. That’s how reefs grow.

I feel the biggest mistake we make (and us Geezers who started this hobby are the cause) is keeping our tanks to clean.

Our gravel or sand is to clean, and our food is to clean and our water is to clean.

I will get to clean water later as it even sounds weird to me.

Fish, birds, whales, lizzards, earthworms, Liberals, Conservatives and us all have a symbiotic relationship with bacteria, viruses and parasites.

Viruses, bacteria and parasites have been here longer than us and will be here when we all go to Mars because this planet has nothing left but plastic.

In a tank, any tank, except a quarantined or medicated tank, bacteria run everything. We forget about them, but it is the bacteria that call the shots, not us.

Bacteria have their own problems as viruses also affect and kill them. Bacteria hate that.

Parasites are also infected by bacteria and viruses.

Probably funguses also, but I am guessing.

Anyway, we call those things “disease organisms” because they can make us sick, but we forget that without them, we couldn’t live.

Our stomach is loaded with both beneficial and harmful bacteria. They live in harmony along with the funguses and viruses. Seawater is loaded with all of those things and that is natural and the way it should be.

We have problems when we mess with that system. If we kill bacteria, the viruses can take over as can the parasites.

If we for instance use copper, we will kill the parasites and bacteria, but not the viruses.

We really can’t kill the viruses (as Covid 19 taught us) because viruses are not alive to start with but we can disintegrate them using UV light or ozone.

So if we kill one of the pathogens, we allow the remaining ones to thrive and cause problems.

We can of course kill everything by using drugs along with UV and Ozone but should we?

It sounds like a good plan but have you seen anyone who just had Chemo and radiation to kill cancer?

Those people have no immunity to anything and although they are kept in a sterile environment, many of them die anyway because we can’t live like that in the real world.

Neither can fish.

In some cases we do have to resort to that drastic measure and sometimes it works. But not usually and it could take years for that fish to regain its compliment of stomach flora where it could live a normal life free from disease with a functioning immune system.

The problem with killing everything is of course that the bacteria, parasites and viruses will all infect the fish at different times and whichever comes first can overwhelm the fishes immune system because those things no longer are living in harmony where they can all keep each other in check.

In nature none of those pathogens get the upper hand because they evolved to counteract each other.

If we disrupt the cycle, we cause problems and tank crashes.

I propose, and it has worked for decades for me and other successful aquarists with long lasting reefs, that instead of trying to limit or eliminate natural pathogens leaving the fish open to disease, we cultivate those things, "in proportion" with each other leaving the fish with a strong immune system that it evolved with.

Remember, in the sea the fish are living with every aquatic disease there is with no problem. They only have problems after they are collected, shipped and put in our tanks.

There is no reason for them to have problems as my fish realize including my almost 30 year olds.

I know many, or all the fish we buy don’t look very good and are all infected with something. But remember, they are “always” infected with something because fish eat and breathe pathogens as they live. In the sea their immune system has no problems dealing with those afflictions because the fish is not stressed and is eating there natural food which is loaded with bacteria.

It’s the pathogens that tell the fishes immune system what method to use to eradicate that organism.

Remember in the sea fish normally eat living prey. They rarely eat sterile pellets, flakes or freeze dried anything. The prey they eat is always loaded with bacteria, parasites and viruses in the same proportions as are already in the fishes gut. Fish and us can’t digest food without bacteria which is the reason so many fish die while being medicated with copper or other drugs. It kills their stomach bacteria. It’s simple.

I mentioned before that our water is to clean and that may sound counterproductive because coral reefs are thought to be pristine. But the difference in water from a coral reef and our tanks is that the water on a coral reef has been there long before Betty White was born and many of our tanks were started a week from last Tuesday. Seawater actually gets better with age, to an extent.

If new, clean seawater was so good, why do new tanks look lousy? Why do new tanks, with all new water have so many diseases? Why do Noobs lose so many fish?

It’s because bacteria, viruses, corals, seaweed, rocks, meteorites, shipwrecks, whales and waste water from frankfurter carts in New York City all end up in the sea and all of those things are what fish evolved in. OK, maybe not the frankfurter carts. But it takes time for those organisms to reach a point where they are in sync with each other and none of them out weigh or out perform each other.

I was also under the impression that we needed to keep everything sterile. I wouldn’t think to put my hands in the tank without rinsing many times to get every trace of soap off.

I tried very hard to keep dirt out of my tank and vacuumed up every last bit of un eaten food.

I was wrong.

Now I take mud from a salt water bay and throw it in. I take garden soil (without pesticides) and throw it in. I feed earthworms full of dirt. I feed clams, mussels and whiteworms with as much dirt attached as I can find.

I never quarantine or medicate unless I purposely buy a very sick fish that I know will not live through the night and I experiment with questionable results.

I never worry if a fish I buy is in the same tank as fish with spots.



What I do is take that fish home as soon as I can and after a short acclimation, place it in my tank and try to get natural food into it. Natural food with living bacteria in it which is not usually commercially purchased food.

That food is deep frozen or irradiated to kill bacteria. I do use that food but I always supplement it with the foods I mentioned because without fresh, living bacteria, fish will always be at risk of dying from just about anything.



If you don’t believe any of this, go and watch Oprah give away Cadillacs to stray cats.

I’m convinced a lot of these “companies” that push quarantine and sterile tanks are doing it for $$$. All these medications, quarantine tanks and equipment and pre quarantined fish cost more money for the hobbyist. I can’t find a bigger turn off for new reefers than quarantining..

you can guess who made a video on quarantine recently, and the guy who featured in it has plenty of bad reviews here and charges out the wazoo for fish.

 

[HuduVudu]

I’m convinced a lot of these “companies” that push quarantine and sterile tanks are doing it for $$$. All these medications, quarantine tanks and equipment and pre quarantined fish cost more money for the hobbyist. I can’t find a bigger turn off for new reefers than quarantining..

My take is a little different.

Since the 70's the thinking has always been to that disease and parasites are THE cause not the symptom of the cause. This seems to track with cultural expectations that doctors can cure everything through the majik of Science™. This seems to in recent years gotten out of control. Instead of doctors being the trusted advisor they have become the benevolent dictator. This is from a natural desire to not have to deal with the messy difficulties of health and wellness. Many things in this area are so foriegn and counter-intuitive that people write them off as the drivel of conspiracy theorists, and many grift because of the elusive nature of true health and wellness. This same mindset has been mirrored in the hobby. New reefers are drawn to this mindset because it is most familar to them. Capitalism being what it is is simply providing goods and services that people want. There are many new reefers compared to few established reefers, so new reefers have a louder voice in the capitalist equation. This is one of the interesting things about capitalism, but it isn't capitalism it is the incentives that are driving it.

It is an uphill battle to show people a new way. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

My 2 cents.

 

[fishmonkey]

My take is a little different.

Since the 70's the thinking has always been to that disease and parasites are THE cause not the symptom of the cause. This seems to track with cultural expectations that doctors can cure everything through the majik of Science™. This seems to in recent years gotten out of control. Instead of doctors being the trusted advisor they have become the benevolent dictator. This is from a natural desire to not have to deal with the messy difficulties of health and wellness. Many things in this area are so foriegn and counter-intuitive that people write them off as the drivel of conspiracy theorists, and many grift because of the elusive nature of true health and wellness. This same mindset has been mirrored in the hobby. New reefers are drawn to this mindset because it is most familar to them. Capitalism being what it is is simply providing goods and services that people want. There are many new reefers compared to few established reefers, so new reefers have a louder voice in the capitalist equation. This is one of the interesting things about capitalism, but it isn't capitalism it is the incentives that are driving it.

It is an uphill battle to show people a new way. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

My 2 cents.

Im pretty sure real doctors scam people too or at least could care less about misdiagnosed patients etc.. at the same time these quarantine obsessed people seem genuine about their efforts. I dono, but it seems obvious that putting your fish through stress equivalent to chemo is kinda weird unless they have some severe disease already.

 

[KrisReef]

That fish roe is a very good food if your fish eat it. I would only use a little of it at a time because it is very rich and almost all vitamin A. Feed it with clams. I personally don't like caviar and think it tastes like snot but I will eat just about anything else from the sea.

The oysters and other gunk you scrape from your dock is also excellent and I do it all the time myself. The gunkier it looks, the better.

@Arthur_Dent
I don't want to put words in Paul B's mouth, or mis-attribute ideas about fresh Mahi Mahi as potential food, but I would suspect that Paul would include fresh chopped fish heart and possibly some of the other freshly grated organs as being suitable natural foods to feed a tank?

I BBQ store bought salmon and I gather the mussle flakes that adhere to the skin and after those cool, plop them into my tank. Tangs, wrasse, clownfish, filefish, damsels all seem to enjoy the salmon as much as we do. Following Paul's lead I have been feeding mussles and clams from the store or from the shoreline as I find them. I live in southern CA and try to be mindful of water conditions to avoid importing potential domoic acid issues that are compounded in bivalves and thus far I have not observed any negative impacts in my tank other than increases in phosphate. I am happy to deal with the phosphate from natural foods than pellets, I guess I'm old and pellet intolerant.

Also, he focuses upon fresh but I feed a lot of industrial prepared frozen foods. When we have bbq salmon, or shrimp, or if buy fresh clams or mussles I will feed those fresh to the tank but if I buy extra of have left overs I chop them up and put the gunk into a baggy and freeze them for later. I defrost small chunks in tank water and feed that. The tangs have asked me for a BBQ for Christmas and everyone seems to prefer real food to frozen industrial TV dinners.

 

[HuduVudu]

Im pretty sure real doctors scam people too or at least could care less about misdiagnosed patients

The reason that people get scammed is because they are lazy or misinformed. There a lot of bad actors and they feed on what is comfortable for people. People want what is comfortable and they get it. It is always the person with the money that ultimately controls what is done.

 

[DE FISH]

Earth worms are good for a reef tank ? I’ve always fed these to my fresh water Cichlids. But never thought of feeding when to my salt water fish.

 

[HuduVudu]

Earth worms are good for a reef tank ? I’ve always fed these to my fresh water Cichlids. But never thought of feeding when to my salt water fish.

Usually they are too big. There are some smaller red worms that I get in my compost that might work, but most of the time they are too big.

White worms on the other hand ...

You definitely want to feed white worms.

 

[DE FISH]

Usually they are too big. There are some smaller red worms that I get in my compost that might work, but most of the time they are too big.

White worms on the other hand ...

You definitely want to feed white worms.

Some earth worms are tiny

 

[HuduVudu]

Some earth worms are tiny

If you can get them small then do it. I haven't seen any that my fish can stuff in their fat pie holes.

I try everything too, bugs anything. I have even tried mosquito larvae. If they eat them I will get more for them. I would most definitely prefer live food.

Full disclosure I feed almost exclusively white worms. I have two butterflys and clown goby.

 

[DE FISH]

I just dig a hole in woodlands and collect earth worms some can be very small others massive. You can always chop them up to bite size pieces @Paul B your thoughts on this ?

 

[Arthur_Dent]

@Arthur_Dent
I don't want to put words in Paul B's mouth, or mis-attribute ideas about fresh Mahi Mahi as potential food, but I would suspect that Paul would include fresh chopped fish heart and possibly some of the other freshly grated organs as being suitable natural foods to feed a tank?

I BBQ store bought salmon and I gather the mussle flakes that adhere to the skin and after those cool, plop them into my tank. Tangs, wrasse, clownfish, filefish, damsels all seem to enjoy the salmon as much as we do. Following Paul's lead I have been feeding mussles and clams from the store or from the shoreline as I find them. I live in southern CA and try to be mindful of water conditions to avoid importing potential domoic acid issues that are compounded in bivalves and thus far I have not observed any negative impacts in my tank other than increases in phosphate. I am happy to deal with the phosphate from natural foods than pellets, I guess I'm old and pellet intolerant.

Also, he focuses upon fresh but I feed a lot of industrial prepared frozen foods. When we have bbq salmon, or shrimp, or if buy fresh clams or mussles I will feed those fresh to the tank but if I buy extra of have left overs I chop them up and put the gunk into a baggy and freeze them for later. I defrost small chunks in tank water and feed that. The tangs have asked me for a BBQ for Christmas and everyone seems to prefer real food to frozen industrial TV dinners.

Definitely don't disagree. Earlier in this thread, there's a comment about fish predation in the wild, and the fact that they don't get gutted and cleaned before that happens.

I'm gonna give it a shot with grated frozen entrails and such. Worst that can happen is my house catches on fire.

 

[HuduVudu]

@DE FISH not to horn in here, but you should read this entire thread. I know that it is a bit long but it is a good read and Paul's humor makes it worth it. You will see pretty clearly what his answer will be for you.