A lot of known people dont QUARANTINE!!!

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Paul B

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Did you have anything to do with that wholesaler in nassau , hempstead to be specific...circa 1978 ? when I was working for and helped set up and build "pets plus" in freeport ...I snuck in their one day after work and stocked up on stuff for my home tank..Guy who ran the wholesaler thought the stuff I picked was for pets plus...
I could have, I don't remember but I did frequent a few wholesalers because as I said I had one of the few tanks around and I got to know the few Lfs owners and would go with them to pick out their fish and I would also pick mine.

Now I have no idea where any wholesalers are or even if there are any left in NY.
But I go to a place about 12 miles from here where I get great prices. Copperbands $25.00, mandarins $15.00, firefish $7.00 etc.
 

Paul B

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Ich is something you can manage with a healthy tank, healthy diet and low stress.

Can brook or velvet be managed after being introduced to the healthiest tank?
Of course. It's the same process and immune tanks are immune from all communicable diseases. They have to be or they wouldn't exist for many years or decades.
I look at the disease forums now and it seems there is brook and velvet all over the place.

If your tank crashes it is your fault, not the fish or the velvet.

Very new tanks will have issues no matter what you do and that is the most critical time in a tanks life.
 

pseudorand

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This topic reminds me of my mom and seatbelts. No matter what stats or logic you use, she won't wear a seatbelt. Swears in a bad accident she will be trapped in the car and burn to death, and would be much better off being thrown from the vehicle. Over 70 years old and there is still no chance of changing her mind.
Your mom is 70 and has never worn a seatbelt. And is apparently no worse for the wear (or lack thereof, pardon the pun). Of course there are situations where a seatbelt is the difference between life and death. But most of us won't ever be in that situation.

However, that's very different from QT. There is no downside to wearing a seatbelt. The cost is $0. Not so with QT. Stress and toxic "meds" and such have a very real cost/risk. You're balancing that risk against the risk of pathogens and infection. The QT discussion is about how the scales fall in that balance. Data (i.e. numeric measurements from controlled experiments rather than anecdotes) is hard to come by, so we're all just taking our best guess.
 

pseudorand

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I can give an example of ten tanks on a 180,000 gallon central system where my quarantine process has worked to avoid all epizootics for over six years (grin). I've only had one case of Cryptocaryon where I lost fish - a stand alone deep reef Caribbean exhibit that had a Spanish Flag fish in it that I was "scared" to run through copper. I eventually saved that fish, with copper, but lost a Bank's butterflyfish and some others.

Jay
Why would we think there is any validity in comparing an 180,000 gallon system to our home tanks, the biggest of which are probably three orders of magnitude smaller?

Also, this tank didn't get diseases after QT. We have know way to know if it would have without QT. And even if there was a control, that would be a sample size of 2.

Perhaps more importantly, "QT" is likely a whole lot more complex that dumping something in another tank with some copper for a month. What are all the steps necessary, and which are really necessary vs myth and legend.
 

ChrisRD

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I don't claim to have any answers....can only offer my experience. I have been keeping saltwater fish for 30 years now and was never much for QT or subjecting livestock to anything unnecessary. I always felt getting livestock from trusted sources and providing good nutrition / environment was the way to go...the "management" camp I guess.

That said, some years back I had an unfortunate incident where I received a tang I did not order (mix up, I received someone else's livestock order). I added it to a 65 gallon FOWLR tank to hold it until I could find it a suitable home. A week or two later I had no fish (velvet). That was a first for me...it took 25 years...but I finally got bit. There's nothing like a complete tank wipe out to get you thinking about the value of QT.

The tank was newish at the time (probably the first year or two IIRC) and was the only tank I have ever started with dry rock (years ago my other tanks had real live rock...Fiji, Marshall, etc.)...could those be factors? I don't know... Like many things in this hobby...it's a complex topic for sure...which is why I'm sure the argument will continue on...;)
 
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Ben Pedersen

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I have been reefing for almost 40 years... I do not quarantine and have never had an issue until recently... Quarantine is a personal choice, if it makes those who do it more comfortable, then its good for them. For those who don't feel they need to.... great.. Why is it a point of contention? There is no correct answer. Those who do, are not better or smarter then those who don't!

However... beware.. there are venders that will sell you infested acros and diseased fish without a second thought... Those venders even advertise on R2R..

It seems to me coral and fish pests are on the rise...
Photos of my tank to demonstrate my opinion. I took these yesterday.
DA084326-2884-4F82-9C40-D852C29EFF1A.png

9BDB60B3-D840-467F-A230-5354F1601D60.png


A5DAFC8A-E4CB-4BEC-B583-9016CF869977.png

and a video:
 

Jay Hemdal

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Why would we think there is any validity in comparing an 180,000 gallon system to our home tanks, the biggest of which are probably three orders of magnitude smaller?
Also, this tank didn't get diseases after QT. We have know way to know if it would have without QT. And even if there was a control, that would be a sample size of 2.

Perhaps more importantly, "QT" is likely a whole lot more complex that dumping something in another tank with some copper for a month. What are all the steps necessary, and which are really necessary vs myth and legend.
It works like this: that system has a number of fish sourced through the very same dealers used in the pet trade. The size of the tank actually INCREASES the risk of an epizootic from all of the shipments it took to fill it. Unlike a home aquarist who might add 10 fish to their tank in say, 4 batches, this system had hundreds of fish added over scores of shipments - much riskier. It is known that Neobenedenia can cause an epizootic from just a single egg. Obviously, our quarantine process didn’t let that happen, over multiple shipments. N isn’t one, it is the number of fish. I don’t need to risk fish by running a non-quarantine control as I had positive diagnosis of both cryptocaryon and Neobenedenia in incoming fish, and this was resolved by the quarantine process. If I hadn’t quarantined, I would have had epizootics in my main system, guaranteed. Same thing happens in home aquariums.

When I have more time, I’m going to run some data analysis on fish diseases posts here: quarantined versus not, and compare outcomes...I did a quick look last fall and I think the results are going to be profound.

As I said, quarantine isn’t a panacea, but if you are buying standard pet store fish, it is always going to be less riskier than not quarantining.

Proactive quarantine won’t resolve handling issues (cyanide, etc) Uronema, internal bacterial issues like Mycobacterium, or Mycosporidians, but it does resolve the majority of external protozoan and metazoan issues that have the greatest risk of creating an epizootic in the displays.

Jay
 

Squidward

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What's quarantine? ;Joyful;Happy

On a more serious note, I understand the reasoning behind people quarantining new fish.

I've never done it. First of all because when I started in the hobby I didn't have the resources or space to do it.

Secondly, so far I've had no issues as long as my fish are well fed (in other words find other methods to lower your nutrient levels in your tank besides starving your fish). Healthy, well fed fish I find tend to rarely fall ill to whatever it is quarantining is supposed to avoid.

In my opinion, a "sterile" tank devoid of any pathogens is as illusionary as humans living in a sterile bubble...

On the other hand, I have read the stories about people who have had no issue not quarantining new fish but ended up regretting it. Not sure why this happens... maybe not feeding healthy fish enough?
It's been amazing so far with no ich. And yes us qurantine people feed our fish just as good as non qurantine people.
 
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Dan_P

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Hello guys I am so so so confused. Should i quarantine or not? A lot of “famous” people on youtube like reef dork, inappropriate reefer, and fish of hex dont quarantine their fish and they have proof of how successful their reef tanks are.

Based on my experience I am an advocate of 1-4 months of quarantining your fish, because i have personally lost thousands and thousands of dollars after not quarantining before on my Fowlr and my nano reef years back.

Now once again I am seeing a lot of people not quarantining fish. I just started my new aquarium and I heard before that I should quarantine before putting it on my DT but what if there are 0 live stocks in there other than a quarantined sps and CUC.
There is no fact checker on YouTube. There is also a large amount of BS on the internet.

Also at play here is wanting to follow the crowd and taking the easy way. You may be in a slippery slope of following the “in crowd“ on social media.

Quarantining is a best practice. The method reduces risk, but like seat belts and health insurance, it can seem like a waste of time and money. The “it won’t happen to me” idea is a flaw in human thinking and a very, very easy thing to accept. It is candy to the brain.
 

fishybizzness

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I cringe every time I see a thread like this started. I always think, "Let the Paul B bashing begin "! Lol! Imho, both methods work, until they don't. The art of quarantine is not something for the beginner noob. It seems to have a very steep learning curve. If it is not performed to perfection, and on every single creature and coral you put in your aquarium, you are wasting your time and money. I also believe that alot of fish are lost due to failed quarantineing. I always see negative comments when someone says they don't have the space or the time to run a quarantine tank. I personally know that I wouldn't have the time to dedicate to a full quarantine system, between work and other home projects, my spare time is very limited. Does that mean I shouldn't have an aquarium? Quarantine would also be totally ineffective for someone like me that uses natural seawater for most of my water changes. There are many aquariums out there that never quarantine anything and are very successful long term. I do believe that in newer tanks, an attempt should at the very least be made to get livestock from a trusted source that pre quarantine and at least an observation period should be implemented to make sure the fish is eating well and there are no visible signs of issues. As I said before, both methods work, not because of luck, but because of the skill level of the aquarist! This should always be acknowledged imo.
 

Paul B

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That is correct and even in my book I say Noobs should quarantine. I personally think quarantine hurts fish but a Noob tank will have so many problems already and their fish will not be healthy no matter what they think.

Keeping a fish healthy "looking" for a few years is easy. Most fish can even go months without eating but they are not usually really healthy.

Old "home" tanks, like decades, not a few years are rarely quarantined tanks. I think it would be very hard to keep parasites out of an old tank especially if you replace fish that die of old age or jumping out.

Old tanks would also be healthy tanks because they would not be old if they were not healthy and the owner would have a lot of experience.

Who has the oldest fully quarantined "home" tank here? A tank where the fish never get sick and die mostly of old age? A tank that has never crashed or gotten ich, velvet, uronoma?

Does anyone have a 10 year old tank like that? 15 year old? Any age. Who has the oldest quarantined tank? I want to study the method because I want to learn as much as I can.

I know there must be such tanks and that person should write how he or she keeps that tank healthy and their quarantine procedure as a 5 or 6 year old tank doesn't mean much.

I posted my method many times as did Lasse and Atoll.
 

Justin_Reef

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I observe new fish in what I call a QT system but it's more like a smaller display. It's well established with LR, macro algae, corals....so really it's just another display tank but it's pretty ugly looking. Anyways, they go there for a while so I can check for external parasites. I've never put a fish through copper, I can't imagine purposely exposing a fish to poison and thinking that it will still live a full life. However, I understand that in some cases the copper treatment is what saves the fish and allows it to survive when it may have died days later - I have just never encountered a fish that sick in the 15 years I have had saltwater tanks.

I have had some fish show signs of ich while in my 'QT' but in most cases, I let it run it's coarse and I have found with a really varied diet (all kinds of fresh seafood and algae) and low stress (the QT is in a spare room with no traffic) that they always recover. I did have one fish get ich bad enough that I moved it to a hospital tank and did hypo for a few weeks to relieve the symptoms. This is my Hippo tang.

Since my display must have ich, I don't worry about completely 'clean' fish but I won't add a fish to my display that is not eating well, really thick, stress free, ect. So I use my QT for that. In a few cases, I had fish in my QT who never settled down and I found new homes for them instead of letting them go into my display. They felt like high risk fish.

About a month ago, that Hippo tang was suddenly covered in some weird 'spots' although they were more like little flecks of skin peeling off after a sun burn. It definitely concerned me and I asked in the disease forum. Although I know everyone intensions are good, post after post was confirming that it was velvet and that I needed to put the tang in copper immediately or else it would be dead along with all my other fish... I did not, the tang was not in distress and after a week, whatever that was, disappeared. I am not saying that you should not take advice from the disease form, there are some experts there, but the wanna be experts who throw around insane advice - beware.

That hippo tang, like most, is very skittish and once in a while will get a spot or a mark or a little bacterial thing but always fights it off and it's happening less and less over the years. My other fish never show signs of anything and my porcupine puffer spans every year in May...down to the same week. I am quite sure by now that she is bullet proof lol. I also know she has internal parasites but is very healthy.

I think I agree with both PaulB and the people who QT. I just don't agree with the amount of meds that people use to sterilize fish who maybe don't need them.
 

Justin_Reef

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Something I have always been interested in is this - if you strip a fishes gut bacteria with antibiotics and then feed them pellets for the rest of their lives... in a sterile tank, how do they ever recover?

This is a legit question because over the years I have heard of fish being treated for internal parasites and seemingly getting better, only to pass away at a later time. I always wonder if the antibiotics may have saved the fish short term but gave it no chance to live more than a few years.
 

Paul B

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About a month ago, that Hippo tang was suddenly covered in some weird 'spots' although they were more like little flecks of skin peeling off after a sun burn.
Just after I got my last Hippo tang he got this white spot on his head. Weird.



After a couple of weeks it was gone and I never figured out what it was

Now of course he is fine.



 

pseudorand

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It works like this: that system has a number of fish sourced through the very same dealers used in the pet trade. The size of the tank actually INCREASES the risk of an epizootic from all of the shipments it took to fill it. Unlike a home aquarist who might add 10 fish to their tank in say, 4 batches, this system had hundreds of fish added over scores of shipments - much riskier.
I get the logic, but I don't buy it. Presence of pathogens != guaranteed disease. Are healthy, well fed fish not significantly less likely to be infected even when exposed. And are the chances of a pathogen finding it's mark not inversely proportional to tank size. If it were not so, I could drop a sick fish off the coast of Australia and take out the great barrier reef.

It is known that Neobenedenia can cause an epizootic from just a single egg.
Citation needed. (Since it's Mr. Hemdal, I expect there may actually be a citation.)

Obviously, our quarantine process didn’t let that happen, over multiple shipments. N isn’t one, it is the number of fish. I don’t need to risk fish by running a non-quarantine control as I had positive diagnosis of both cryptocaryon and Neobenedenia in incoming fish, and this was resolved by the quarantine process. If I hadn’t quarantined, I would have had epizootics in my main system, guaranteed.
"Guaranteed" is a strong word for a scientifically-minded individual to use. There are epizootics in the ocean, guaranteed. But the fish don't all get sick and die.

Same thing happens in home aquariums.

When I have more time, I’m going to run some data analysis on fish diseases posts here: quarantined versus not, and compare outcomes...I did a quick look last fall and I think the results are going to be profound.

As I said, quarantine isn’t a panacea, but if you are buying standard pet store fish, it is always going to be less riskier than not quarantining.

Proactive quarantine won’t resolve handling issues (cyanide, etc) Uronema, internal bacterial issues like Mycobacterium, or Mycosporidians, but it does resolve the majority of external protozoan and metazoan issues that have the greatest risk of creating an epizootic in the displays.

Jay
I'm not staying it's not a useful technique. But I suspect doing it well may be hard and error-prone and doing it poorly (as I think I've done) may do more harm than good.
 

Jay Hemdal

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I get the logic, but I don't buy it. Presence of pathogens != guaranteed disease. Are healthy, well fed fish not significantly less likely to be infected even when exposed. And are the chances of a pathogen finding it's mark not inversely proportional to tank size. If it were not so, I could drop a sick fish off the coast of Australia and take out the great barrier reef.


Citation needed. (Since it's Mr. Hemdal, I expect there may actually be a citation.)


"Guaranteed" is a strong word for a scientifically-minded individual to use. There are epizootics in the ocean, guaranteed. But the fish don't all get sick and die.


I'm not staying it's not a useful technique. But I suspect doing it well may be hard and error-prone and doing it poorly (as I think I've done) may do more harm than good.
I think you misunderstand the term epizootic. Propagule pressure in closed systems means there is a limit to what innate disease resistance will help. At a tipping point, the mere presence of huge numbers of infective agents overwhelm any resistance.

Barrett Christie has a calculator that shows how a single Neobenedenia egg can cause a virulent infection.

Well, I just want to make one final point - this isn’t just my opinion. The Association of Zoos and Aquariums mandates that new fish acquisitions be quarantined. This is a condition of accreditation. If every major public aquarium in North America does this, is it wise to dismiss the process out of hand?

Jay
 

RealtorSarkis

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Hello guys I am so so so confused. Should i quarantine or not? A lot of “famous” people on youtube like reef dork, inappropriate reefer, and fish of hex dont quarantine their fish and they have proof of how successful their reef tanks are.

Based on my experience I am an advocate of 1-4 months of quarantining your fish, because i have personally lost thousands and thousands of dollars after not quarantining before on my Fowlr and my nano reef years back.

Now once again I am seeing a lot of people not quarantining fish. I just started my new aquarium and I heard before that I should quarantine before putting it on my DT but what if there are 0 live stocks in there other than a quarantined sps and CUC.
So one thing I learned the hard way in the hobby is that no reef is the same, you may apply the same methods and practices someone does with their tank which makes them successful into your own tank and it may not work the same way. Every tank is different, they all behave differently. I did not quarantine for years and just dumped and prayed, I lost many of my fish, not one of my fish were permanent members of the reef, it didn't work out for me like it does for some other reefers. I have the ability to strictly quarantine everything wet that enters my tank, which most people don't have the space to qt that's why they don't do it but since I began quarantining everything, I've had massive success with everything that enters my tank. I qt everything that's not a fish in my frag tank for 90 days. Fish take about a month and a half to qt, I feel that it gives my tank plenty of time to adjust to the new addition of fish and coral, also 90 days is a lot of time to notice pests on coral, you would be surprised what I find on frags I thought were "clean". Moral of the story is that never compare tanks or methods of reefing, do what works best for you!
 
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